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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:23 pm 
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miero wrote:
I might be able to fit a 3 m cable running along in the middle of the wall, not sure though. This Sony tv has all the connections in the left side, which is the wrong side for me. It is impossible to find these kind of cables (18 Gbit/sec stated) locally. I did try several shorter HDMI cables with the previous Samsung tv, and none of those worked any better. Any suggestions for a decent 3m/5m HDMI 18 Gbit/sec cable in ebay/Amazon?

Wondering if I should try to separate the HDMI cable from the cable duct that contains also power line and speaker cables. I recall getting radio wave interference in this kind of situation to a 10 m long HDMI cable some 10 years ago. Had to buy a really expensive 10m cable to get flicker free image to projector. Every time a near by fridge compressor started working, there was a blink in the image, even when projector and receiver were running from an unplugged UPS :bonk:

Edit: Looks like the blinking starts, when I set the receiver to 'Direct' state. This I can repeat and verify constantly in ten seconds. Any other state, where the receiver handles the signal works ok. Dunno how I have managed to miss this. 2 am here, I'll read the manual tomorrow. :bonk:


The reason it's happening in Direct state is because that mode is passthrough. The AVR does not act as a signal repeater, thus the signal has to traverse a longer distance before it reaches its destination with no boost at all. When the AVR handles the signal, it acts as a repeater and retransmits the signal with a boost, which is enough to prevent the problems from occuring. In the case you're indicating here, the total distance from source to AVR and then from AVR to the TV would be combined, and if it exceeds 3m, you're going to run into signal issues, especially with cables that aren't compliant with the HDMI 2.0a specification. In this instance, the powered Redmere cables would work, though getting ARC functioning through them is hit and miss, and you'd only be able to use a Redmere cable between the source and AVR, not the AVR and TV as the AVR provides no signal or voltage stabilization in passthrough (Direct) mode.

You're pretty much right in the perfect storm of equipment that came out just as HDMI 2.0 was being solidified, but prior to the 2.0a/b specification updates which brought proper 4k60 4:4:4 support.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:26 am 
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Yes that seems to be the case. Windows 10 seems to default to some other lower display setting (no HDR?), as the screen does not flicker in receiver direct mode when booted to win. But then I only use Win to play games, if I have the time. Seems that the Onkyo NX636 should be returned to the home theatre, as that setup contains a Sony projector that is plain 1080. I use that thing like 4 times a year, lol. Would need planning, like turning on the air conditioning beforehand. :lol:

Edit: I recalled why I did plug the receiver to the UPS, since if I don't connect it there, the display would go dark every time there is a blackout, as the receiver works as HDMI switch. And I need the display for working, be there thunder or not.

Been out of home theatre things for several years, forgot also how to use this receiver. Should have used Dolby Surround instead of direct. The idea of that DTS Neo:6 crap always kept me away from choosing the normal Dolby Surround. No more blinking then, just the knowledge that I'm watching a messy 4:2:0 picture with this receiver model. All AV receivers cost silly amount of money here, as they are really hi-so stuff here, can't even see them in local shops.

Anyway problem is solved, and the roadmap is clear. Thank You Squishy Tia for Your time and help on this! :welcome:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:55 am 
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miero wrote:
Yes that seems to be the case. Windows 10 seems to default to some other lower display setting (no HDR?), as the screen does not flicker in receiver direct mode when booted to win. But then I only use Win to play games, if I have the time. Seems that the Onkyo NX636 should be returned to the home theatre, as that setup contains a Sony projector that is plain 1080. I use that thing like 4 times a year, lol. Would need planning, like turning on the air conditioning beforehand. :lol:

Edit: I recalled why I did plug the receiver to the UPS, since if I don't connect it there, the display would go dark every time there is a blackout, as the receiver works as HDMI switch. And I need the display for working, be there thunder or not.

Been out of home theatre things for several years, forgot also how to use this receiver. Should have used Dolby Surround instead of direct. The idea of that DTS Neo:6 crap always kept me away from choosing the normal Dolby Surround. No more blinking then, just the knowledge that I'm watching a messy 4:2:0 picture with this receiver model. All AV receivers cost silly amount of money here, as they are really hi-so stuff here, can't even see them in local shops.

Anyway problem is solved, and the roadmap is clear. Thank You Squishy Tia for Your time and help on this! :welcome:


The problem, as you noticed, is that you are stuck with 4:2:0 when the AVR handles the signal. You can pass a 4:4:4 signal via passthrough/Direct, but then you get the flickering due to the length of the cables involved. If you had a 22/24 AWG HDMI 2.0 cable, that would probably eliminate the issue. Problem is finding such cables. Monoprice.com used to be good for that, but then they went all Blue Jeans Cable-esque on everyone and turned into a boutique style website with an absolutely shitty selection.

I'd kill for an AVR and TV that uses DisplayPort. That would rock my socks as I could get 4k120 NOW without waiting for HDMI 2.1. Bleh.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:22 pm 
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How about splitters or Amps?

http://pccables.com/HDMI-AMP.html

24 AWG cable???

http://pccables.com/products/HDMI-to-HD ... 24awg.html


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:47 pm 
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BDAqua wrote:


Splitters/amps are usually not a good idea with HDMI signals, especially regarding HDCP handshakes. They're about as flaky as can be with regard to passing a signal through properly. I've yet to find a standalone HDMI switch under $200 that actually works properly with anything above 3m connections. And the ones you linked are only HDMI 1.3 capable, and cannot pass HDCP 2.2 signals.

Even though that cable linked shows 24 AWG, at 25 feet it far exceeds the maximum unpowered length for HDMI. The thicker wire (lower AWG) helps a lot, but anything more than 15 feet/4.5m requires a repeater that is certified for the HDMI spec needed, in this case HDMI 2.0a/b @ 18.7 Gbit/sec.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:10 pm 
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Ah, thanks ST.:)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:31 pm 
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I knew the instant Monoprice started showing products other than their own that the end times for Monoprice were near. Their site has gone from aggravating to use (their search function is horrible) but ultimately satisfying to even harder to use with mediocre results.

I know their Redmere cables work fine at 1080p over long lengths. They might have something similar for 4K but it's not like I'll see a 4K anything outside of a store in the next 5 years, so I haven't really been paying attention beyond noticing how expensive a video card you need.

They also made an in-line repeater where you could plug a 15ft cable into one side and then 25+ feet into the other side, though limited to 1080p.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:20 pm 
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MonkeyBoy wrote:
I knew the instant Monoprice started showing products other than their own that the end times for Monoprice were near. Their site has gone from aggravating to use (their search function is horrible) but ultimately satisfying to even harder to use with mediocre results.

I know their Redmere cables work fine at 1080p over long lengths. They might have something similar for 4K but it's not like I'll see a 4K anything outside of a store in the next 5 years, so I haven't really been paying attention beyond noticing how expensive a video card you need.

They also made an in-line repeater where you could plug a 15ft cable into one side and then 25+ feet into the other side, though limited to 1080p.


The thing about Redmere is you can use one, and ONLY one cable, and it has to be directly connected from source to destination, no AVR in between, as it's unidirectional. ARC is supposed to work with it, but there is no signal boost in the direction ARC travels, and as such in situations like this it's utterly useless. The problems here are a receiver that came out just as HDMI 2.0 (non-a/b) was finalized, a TV that has "HDMI 2.0" ports, but only utilizes part of the spec (it should be able to take 4:4:4 in all modes if it's a 2.0a compliant controller), and cables too long and too thin to do the job. Put it all together and the only way to get a reliable picture is to drop the resolution down to 1080p60 (4:4:4) and let the TV's upscaler handle the rest. Problem there is that results in input lag for games and just as non-ideal situation for computer text as using native resolution at 4:2:0.

Stuff like this is what has kept me from updating to true 4k60/4:4:4 thus far because I'd have to replace all of my non-game console gear to do it right. Thankfully my $2k Yamaha RX-A3000 is essentially a paperweight now because they went RoHS on us and the FBGA solder joints between the Texas Instruments DSP chip and system board fail over time due to extreme heat/cooling as this is a high heat environment (it's a gigantic power supply, duh), so I'm looking for a new AVR. Problem is HDMI 2.1 got delayed AGAIN so it isn't going to appear for another year now. This means no 4k120 for me unless I go without movies and games with dialogue for another year (I can't understand dialogue from the shitty TV speakers due to their placement and how they reflect sound, and I can't use headphones as the AVR's DSP is dead and thus audio only works when the stupid thing is turned off and used via standby passthrough mode. I can't use the PS4's controller headphone port for audio properly for movies because there is no delay/lip sync function, so it's all out of sync due to TV processing (why didn't Sony build this into the damn console??).

All this could have been avoided if Yamaha used lead solder joints. Oh well. Tis life I guess. But I know how miero feels at least, because a cheap receiver cannot power my speakers (Polk RTi-A9s). I need a higher end AVR w/ preouts that don't clip like the cheaper Yamahas do such as the TSR-7810 I got my grandpa for christmas. I need good voltages going to my two Adcom GFA-555 Mk IIs so they can power the mains while the AVR powers the surrounds/center.

Wish I could frag the HDMI consortium members...

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Last edited by Squishy Tia on Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:40 am 
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Squishy Tia wrote:
Wish I could frag the HDMI consortium members...
On that point I wholeheartedly agree.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:28 pm 
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Just ordered Onkyo TX-NR474 for 4:4:4 chroma, as I will use it with tv/monitor through the thunderstorms while on the rainy seasons for the next five years. Tv warranty is 2 years, and we bought a shop insurance for 5 years for this display. I'll look to HDMI 2.1 after that warranty is void and Thor visits me again.

I can still cancel this, if the setup won't deliver fro some reason?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:23 am 
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miero wrote:
Just ordered Onkyo TX-NR474 for 4:4:4 chroma, as I will use it with tv/monitor through the thunderstorms while on the rainy seasons for the next five years. Tv warranty is 2 years, and we bought a shop insurance for 5 years for this display. I'll look to HDMI 2.1 after that warranty is void and Thor visits me again.

I can still cancel this, if the setup won't deliver fro some reason?


I can't see anything in the manual that says this unit can't process a 4k60 4:4:4 signal. I can't guarantee it either as the unit was developed before Dolby Atmos came out, meaning it's at least 1.5 years old, if not two years, in actual design shelf-life. This is what sucks about HDMI so much. It's a crapshoot trying to get all of the features you need from any one brand and/or model within a brand, especially when it comes to 4k video.

In this case, the manual states that the unit can deliver a 4k60 signal @ 4:4:4:

Quote:
Résolution vidéo maximum 4k 60 Hz (YCbCr 4:4:4)


Whether or not it can pass an SRBG/ARGB 4:4:4 signal properly is anyone's guess (that would be the PC output standard). No way to tell until you try. But your biggest concern should be the cable length, because even with a higher end receiver than this, you're still limited in how far a signal will travel before degrading too much to be reliable. Physics doesn't change just because the HDMI controller does.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:38 am 
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Since my current receiver is limited to YCbCr '4:2:0' as You stated, I need to fix that issue in addition to the cable signal strength issue, right?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:12 am 
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miero wrote:
Since my current receiver is limited to YCbCr '4:2:0' as You stated, I need to fix that issue in addition to the cable signal strength issue, right?


Theoretically, yes. Those two steps should do it. I'd like to say I could guarantee success, but as you've seen, unless every last piece of equipment is in the same HDMI generation segment, it can be a total crapshoot. Throw in ARC, which requires HDMI CEC to be enabled in order to function, and it just devolves into the good ol' days of 68k/PPC Mac SCSI Voodoo™. 4k is a massive turn-off to me right now, not because of cost, but because I just can't guarantee everything's going to work together flawlessly because HDMI is so bloody fucking fragmented that it makes iOS and Android look downright coherent and cohesive.

Your GPU is up to snuff. The new AVR should be up to snuff. The TV will be the ultimate wildcard here. And none of those things is cheap to replace, at least where you live anyway. :(

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:49 am 
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Ok we'll see what will happen. I ordered the best looking 5 m HDMI cable I could find locally (lazada.co.th) and received it yesterday. Did not have time to test it until today. With the previous "high quality' cable plugged directly from GPU to TV (defaults to 4:4:4): instant blinking, couldn't even find the shutdown menu command due to this. With the new 5 m cable not routed with other cables: Nvidia X Server settings shows YCbCr444, and there has been no flickering with the previously problematic background image. Looks promising, although this new cable does not seem very thick either. Makes a difference though, that is for sure.

Hope they learned something, and HDMI 2.1 will make sense. :lol:

-Edit: I think the new cable really is thicker, but the nylon weave makes it harder to guess. The maker ('Zonyee' or 'leegoal'?) defines the cable by it's weight as 5m=370g.

-Edit2: Seems that I could manage with a 3 m cable from the same maker as this new cable, if necessary. Have to install a new cable duct 4 feet from floor for it though.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:28 am 
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miero wrote:
Ok we'll see what will happen. I ordered the best looking 5 m HDMI cable I could find locally (lazada.co.th) and received it yesterday. Did not have time to test it until today. With the previous "high quality' cable plugged directly from GPU to TV (defaults to 4:4:4): instant blinking, couldn't even find the shutdown menu command due to this. With the new 5 m cable not routed with other cables: Nvidia X Server settings shows YCbCr444, and there has been no flickering with the previously problematic background image. Looks promising, although this new cable does not seem very thick either. Makes a difference though, that is for sure.

Hope they learned something, and HDMI 2.1 will make sense. :lol:


HDMI 2.1 requires the brand new (upcoming) 48 Gbit/sec rated cables. Current HDMI 2.0a/b cables are rated for 18 Gbit/sec (though some are really just 10 Gbit/sec rated cables with an 18 Gbit/sec rating slapped on them with no proper testing done to verify that they'll work).

If you want/need sound from the computer to the receiver, you'll probably need a second good HDMI cable as your first will go from computer to AVR and then the second will go AVR to TV. If monoprice hadn't become such a shitty site (and shady at that) and stuck with their original Radio Shack-like selection, you could easily find 22/24 AWG HDMI cables. It is possible to use Redmere Spectra7/HT8181HDMI cables between the computer and receiver, but a regular HDMI cable (non-Redmere) would be required for the connection from receiver to TV. The reason lower AWG cables work better is because the thicker the conductor strands, the more capacitance the cable has. Thinner cables end up with the same situation you'd get if you tried to shoehorn a 10 gigabit ethernet connection through regular Cat 5 cabling. The conductors aren't thick enough, and aren't shielded well enough to withstand even very minor EMI/RFI. Remember, HDMI is getting into the realm of 40 Gbit/sec, which up to now has typically required something like an SFP+/QSFP+ connection using heavy gauge copper cabling or fiber optic cabling. The higher the resolution, the better the cable needs to be to shunt that much data through while still being shielded enough to ward off interference. Until QSFP+ becomes mainstream and comes waaaaaay down in price high bandwidth connections are going to actually require really good quality cables.

I'm not sure if they'll ship to where you live, but Blue Jeans Cable is highly regarded in the audio/videophile world and is probably the next best alternative to monoprice. Monoprice does still have at least one or two good cables, such as these here.

Just remember: There are no HDMI 2.1 cables in existence yet outside of prototypes. So if you see anyone selling them, turn around and run the hell away. They aren't legit.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:34 am 
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I tried to order 'Blue Jeans Cable' several days ago, but could not find any source that would have delivered to Thailand. Just ordered 2m and 3m cables from the same make as the 5m one. They cost like $10 a piece, so I want to be ready to test different possible set ups with the new receiver.

And yes I am joking about the HDMI 2.1. This Sony tv is brand new, and I bought a 5 years insurance for it. No HDMI 2.1 stuff should enter our house during the next 5 years.

Edit: Unless there would be a decent quality 4k LED projector costing under $500 :badteeth:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:53 am 
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The 'new' Onkyo TX-NR474 arrived today. With the TV - better quality 5 m HDMI cable - receiver - bad quality 2 m HDMI cable - GPU everything seems to work fine in YCbCr 4:4:4 mode. :D

Will change at least the current 2 m cable to this better quality brand.

Thanks again for Your time and help on this, Squishy Tia :welcome:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:29 pm 
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miero wrote:
The 'new' Onkyo TX-NR474 arrived today. With the TV - better quality 5 m HDMI cable - receiver - bad quality 2 m HDMI cable - GPU everything seems to work fine in YCbCr 4:4:4 mode. :D

Will change at least the current 2 m cable to this better quality brand.

Thanks again for Your time and help on this, Squishy Tia :welcome:


Hey, if it works, it works. It wouldn't surprise me at all that it took all this just to get it to work though. Going on over a year now without a working receiver because Yamaha used shitty manufacturing processes for the FBGA solder joints on the Texas Instruments DSP chip across its entire Aventage lineup (presumably all the way to the current year!). Aventage units are failing left and right, so much so that Yamaha is all out of the necessary boards to replace the defective ones with. I'd go with Onkyo or Integra (the prosumer pre-pro version of the Onkyo brand) if it weren't for the fact that their Audyssey room correction is non-defeatable outside of the THX listening modes that I never use and that Audyssey uses an extremely sharp rolloff curve ≥6 KHz, making my $2500 speaker setup sound like the tweeters have all gone on strike. As such I prefer Yamaha's YPAO correction system due to its "flat" EQ curve. So I'm stuck with them because Pioneer's amps are shit and the rest use Audyssey.

Ain't life grand? :P

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:52 am 
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Bought a factory refurbished Palit GTX 1070 Super JetStream for a SLI setup. No thermal nor noise problems, almost all my games look great with uppity video settings, and frame rate is usually the monitor's 60 Hz. The forthcoming 'cheaper' $699 2080 model is priced as $1000 here. Thank You Nvidia and resellers for saving my money :welcome:

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