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 Post subject: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:52 am 
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I normally leave my Late 2008 Powerbook running 24/7. Woke up this morning and external monitor said no signal. Unplugged all cables including power, still nothing. Held down power button for several seconds. Not sure if I heard something faintly but wasn't consistent when I tried this several times. Still nothing. Plugged in power, green light so I presume energy is not the issue.

I still have my G4 but I am going to need a working computer. I am using my wife's right now but that's an emergency only solution.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:39 am 
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Try disconnecting the battery and then press power for a few seconds. This should reset the SMC. Then you can connect the battery and power and see if the situation's changed. If no change try the reset again but this time don't connect the battery, just go power in.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:15 am 
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I did as instructed (pressed power for 10s), both leaving battery in and out afterward. No change. When I put my ear right next to the right side of the computer I hear something like a brief whirring (but not when I had the battery out), but it doesn't always do that. If it was the hard drive I'd expect it from the other side, plus I'd expect to the the flashing ? I'm not getting anything on the display. I have disconnected everything from the computer except power which is showing a green light on the connector.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:40 am 
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Well, you could try pulling the HD and DIMMs out. If I remember right in 2008 both should be in the battery bay behind a panel held in with couple screws.

BTW, is this a MacBook or MacBook Pro? 2008 is too late for PowerBook.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:50 am 
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Sorry, my bad, MacBook. Silly, silly mistake I don't normally make. Got too many things going on right now. Got home last night to find living room ceiling hanging down in one corner due to leak somewhere under a tiled bathroom floor. Bad enough but then I went to get online to check with neighbors for good plumbers, plasterer, and maybe carpenter and painter, and computer was dead. Have visitors from Japan staying in the house next weekend, then a party for a sister-city exchange with 30 people next weekend (need to do all food prep. in advance), and in-laws the week after that and only one bathroom which isn't working plus a living room looking like an abandoned house plus all the furniture pushed to one side and you can't get through, plus...! Wife wanted to do a spring cleaning of the porch which resulted in the porch looking great but stuff from the porch dumped in the living room and everywhere else so porch looks great but now the rest of the house is a mess with stuff from porch needing re-homing which means suddenly every other room in the house needs re-organizing. Oh well, I was in a frenzy trying to get the place sparkling clean but now they'll be lucky if they don't have to resort to a shovel and hole in the back yard and a spraying with a garden hose. :emphatic-eek:


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:37 am 
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Oh man, wish I could help.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:07 pm 
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What do people think of used Mac prices on OWC? I am thinking I may need to start looking for a new used computer, probably t he last of the old school Macs you could DIY. Am I right the late 2012 Minis are what I should be looking at? I see some Minis for sale on Craigslist locally but am never sure of the prices. E.g. , about a month ago somebody posted a Late 2012 i5 Mini, 16 GB RAM, 500 GB HDD, $350. Maybe they were just lazy about removing the post so I have no idea if it is still available. Is that a fair price? Something similar on OWC is $600+ Yes, OWC has a warranty but there's also the issue that MN has a $730 "use tax" limit on non-taxed purchases out-state. Once you go over you have to pay sales tax on everything you have purchased out-state so it is just easier for me to buy locally.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:14 pm 
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I would guess that you're looking at a bad motherboard if no amount of coaxing can bring it back to life. I would certainly try yanking the HD & memory and seeing if it at least starts sounding an error beep. Its possible the memory has worked its way loose just enough to throw a wrench into the works but not so far gone that it fails POST (which is when it starts beeping at startup). If you don't mind the disassembly work you could pick up a used board off eBay and fix it that way. Just be sure to use the board as soon as it comes in, otherwise they could ship you a failed board that you won't find out about until after the dispute resolution period has passed. I don't want to jynx myself but I've actually never gotten a bad board off eBay, though I usually stick to big sellers with lots of feedback and not onesy-twosy guy selling stuff from the back of a truck kind of sellers (meaning I end up paying a little more than the cheapest option).

For MacBook Pros the last you'd probably want to buy is a 2012 non-Retina, Retinas are non-upgradeable for the most part. Note that they kept making that model up until 2016 so "2012" doesn't mean it was actually in use since 2012.

Minis became non-upgradeable in 2014, so everything before that is OK. 2010 is the last with an optical drive and can run 10.6, if that matters to you. 2010 is Core2, in 2011 everything moved to i5/i7.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:01 pm 
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These people are reputable , have warranty, can even purcase 1 or 2 year warranty!

Clearance Macs...

https://www.macofalltrades.com/Clearance-Macs-s/87.htm

Today's specials...

http://www.macofalltrades.com/weekly-deals-a/492.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:59 pm 
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I'd prefer a desktop model. I just went with a notebook because I got it for free.

I'll try removing parts later. Kind of busy right now getting the place ready for guests and got behind because of the plumbing issue. Managed to get a plumber to fix the leak ($150/hour!) but still have to deal with a 2'x3' hole in the ceiling. I think the guests will have to live with it because it needs to dry out before anybody tries covering it with sheetrock.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:45 pm 
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Yeah, the joy of water damage.

I've never had any trouble with OWC, although many/some from here have, but I've never bought a used Mac from them. I had a couple RAM modules fail after 1 and 4 years of use and they had no qualms about replacing them under warranty and the memory worked when it came in. Crucial once shipped me defective memory for warranty replacement, so it's not like even the big boys are immune from having issues.

Last time my sister spilled coffee on her 2010 MacBook she bought a motherboard & top plate (keyboards are glued to the top part of the case) for around $100. This is why I mentioned it, if you don't mind the hassle you should be able to get parts for cheaper than a new/used system.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:55 pm 
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I bought a Mac Pro on eBay a year and half ago or there about, for $300 or something, from a seller that sold lots and lots of old Macs -- probably corporate surplus. At any rate, eBay is a reasonable place to at least get a sense of used prices.

- Anonymous


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:06 am 
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$300 was an excellent price. Ebay is a deep market to usefully get an idea of price. For general research advice using the search variables, add Sold to strip out the ambit asking prices to get what people actually paid for the article.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:42 pm 
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Oh dear, Limnos, what a disaster. I can sympathize.
On the same day as your troubles began, Mr H's ancient PowerBook 170 seemed to give up the ghost, but an unplug all day and then a replug got it going again. I'm hoping something still might work for you, but from what I'm reading here, it sounds dire.

BDAqua wrote:
These people are reputable , have warranty, can even purcase 1 or 2 year warranty!

Clearance Macs...

https://www.macofalltrades.com/Clearance-Macs-s/87.htm
...


I bought our 13" MBP from them.
The first one they sent was semi/totally-DOA. It kept shutting down for no apparent reason.

I contacted customer support with a description; they telephoned within 2 hours and then they sent a replacement. I had purchased the 2 year warranty but this event was covered by their short-term warranty on all purchases (if you let them know within 4? days if something is wrong they will take care of problems - actually I waited, hoping I was wrong in my analysis, but it was clearly a sick machine and I contacted them in 5 days of receipt and they were quite kind)

The replacement was perfect, looked almost brand new, the battery had very few cycles, and it is now our travel MBP.

_________________
Mrs H


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:32 pm 
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There are a lot of places selling surplus Macs that were sourced from corporations on eBay. Just look for sellers with multiples of each model available and who've sold dozens, even hundreds of systems, in the past few weeks.

Most of them are professional organizations which test each and every system to verify it's working before it goes out the door, so when one of those shady customers complains (like they do for every purchase) they know exactly what's going on.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:35 am 
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I finally have a bit of time today between Japanese guests and party last weekend and in-laws arriving for this weekend, so I'll try the RAM & HD jiggling MB suggested.

In the meantime I have also been looking at Minis online. I've been thinking about one for a bit now anyway and decided I did not want a brand new one. Don't want Sierra. Don't like not being able to swap out upgrade/bad parts. It looks like the last pre-2014 is a 2012 model. Then there's i5s and i7s. Now I have always been reluctant to spend real money on computers, my general pattern has been $200 every 5 years or so. On the other hand this will likely be the last of the old-school upgradeable Macs I ever buy and I intend to use it like I used my my G4, for a 5+ years. There's a bunch of 2012 i5 Minis around for about $400. If one goes to i7 there's a price bump to $650+. On top there's obviously small adjustments for RAM, SSD vs HDD. I know one can DIY upgrade but when I look at prices on OWC I see that getting something with 4GB RAM and upgrading to to 8GB will cost about the price difference to just buying an 8GB machine to start with. I'm guessing with a 2012 machine I really, really need a good helping of RAM. I have 8 in my MacBook but most of that just gets labeled as idle. However, am I correct that with a 2012 a good bit of the RAM will also be used for graphics, whereas in older machines graphics was not using the main RAM? So one should definitely be thinking 8GB, or should one think 16?

i5 vs. i7 Go for broke? Also work on the basis that an i7 may last a bit longer in Apple's upgrade marathon? I do a small mount of video processing an usually I have just started things just before going to bed and letting them run all night. Generally though I'm not speed crazy and don't game, plus one does spend a bit more for those i7s than i5s. Any other factors that may help me decide?

I have my 1TB 2.5" 7200 rpm HDD from my MacBook (presuming it isn't the thing that's causing it to fail to even power on). I'm thinking getting something with a SSD is the way to go these days and might as well get a computer with one already in it. Again it is possible to DIY upgrade but the $100 upgrade cost (+ time) is often more than the $75 price difference. My other consideration is at one stage to maybe add my 1TB HDD to a SSD machine, though I see from OWC this involves essentially entirely gutting a Mini, then re-assembling.

I recently bought an external optical drive from OWC when my MacBook's died so I have adjusted to not having an internal optical.

I've been using Mavericks for the past year or so and want to stay with it a bit longer, though I realize it is 4 steps behind. I have some software that may not like a newer OS, particularly all the security-nuts features of the newer systems. It's not only a matter of having to pay to upgrade software, it's a matter of the new software versions are often worse than the old software.

From looking at some of the clearance Mac links people have provided I guess another way to go is get one of those $100 2009 MacBooks with the so-so case damage and iffy screens (seems to be bad pixels, not GPU issue). I've been using my MacBook 95% in clamshell mode anyway so the problem issues wouldn't matter to me. However, this would actually be a downgrade from my older 2008 which has higher specs. and I'd have to buy more RAM (can't swap according to OWCs page).

Any input welcome!


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:42 am 
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I never had an i5, but fairly disappointed in i7 performancve compared to Core 2 Duo.

Take dnetc...

2.4 GHz Core2Duo, 6.8 MKeys per core
3.4 GHz i7 Quad Core, 9 MKeys per core, 8 virtual cores no faster

6.8 / 2.4 * 3.4 = 9.6333

*Just for old times sake, G4 1.42 GHz = 14.2 MKeys

Couldn't think of another test that for sure didn't include GPU.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:15 am 
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MB:

Pulled HDD and both RAM modules. Left case unscrewed but re-inserted battery & power cable. Pressed power button. Very quiet noise, I think from the side of the computer near the screen. Not sure if it was speaker trying to chime or something mechanical trying to spin. Tried pressing power button again and no noise this time.

Unplugged power cable, removed battery. Held down power button 10s (SMC reset). Put battery back in, re-attached cable, pressed power button. Again faint noise first press only.

Not sure what is making the noise. I'd almost say it's the optical drive but then why doesn't the HDD try to read, and the rest of POST? I am now pretty sure the noise is from the optical drive. I disconnected all battery & power, unplugged optical drive data cable, reattached battery and power, then pressed power button. No noise. I then plugged in optical data cable while all was powered and immediately got the sound without even pressing the power button.

Sound like a goner?


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:16 am 
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BDAqua wrote:
Take dnetc...

2.4 GHz Core2Duo, 6.8 MKeys per core
3.4 GHz i7 Quad Core, 9 MKeys per core, 8 virtual cores no faster

6.8 / 2.4 * 3.4 = 9.6333

*Just for old times sake, G4 1.42 GHz = 14.2 MKeys.


Sorry BDAqua but I am not following that. Maybe there's something more to it than the mathematics you show but isn't a computer running 4 cores each at 3.4 GHz faster than one running only 2 cores all at a slower speed? Shouldn't it be more along the lines of:

2* 6.6 = 13.2
vs.
4*9 = 36

?

http://faq.distributed.net/cache/261.html
Quote:
the overall speed for a multiprocessor machine is generally merely the speed of one processor multiplied by the number of processors within that machine.


https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/search?dir=desc&page=180&q=mac+mini&sort=multicore_score
Geekbench scores have a pretty sharp divide in groupings between i5 and i7 though there is clearly quite some range for each, particularly when you factor in the extra cores that usually come with i7.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:09 pm 
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Quote:
Shouldn't it be more along the lines of:

2* 6.6 = 13.2
vs.
4*9 = 36

Yes, that is the overall result, I was just trying to show what the i7 or Core 2 Duo should do per core just from an increase in GHz. :)

Geek bench of Dual Core i5s & Dual Core i7s are surprisingly close per GHz.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:12 pm 
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Certainly sounds like its not even getting far enough to fail the POST. It probably gets far enough to supply power to one or both of the SATA busses and then freezes. The motherboard is probably toast.

If I understand BD's math he's dividing the processor speed by the keys/s then multiplying that key/s number by the other processor's speed to indicate how fast it should be. This basically shows that the newer/faster processor is slower per tick than the older/slower processor, which is a grumpy point I usually bring up about processors that Intel (and AMD for that matter) has released since their Halycon days of the Core/Core2 (or Athlon64). Instead of being more efficient per clock in terms of work done, they've backslid to less work done per tick. Hopefully AMD can give them some competition again, seems to be the only thing Intel responds to...


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:53 pm 
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My workloads tend to be sharply oriented toward single-threaded performance where an increasing number of cores is usually detrimental to overall performance.

Fortunately lots of tasks can run concurrently or are amenable to parallel solutions, and there the extra cores really do help. I suspect day-to-day tasks in a modern operating system benefit from multiple cores. Individually everything may run a little more slowly, but you may not have to wait for anything even with lots of stuff going on: unpacking a 2 GB security update while decompressing HD video with 17 tabs open in your browser while compiling some code, yet the computer doesn't grind to a halt (unless you're on Windows).

- Anonymous


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:30 am 
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Anon: Your second paragraph sounds like my typical usage. :)

From various reading it sounds like I should focus either on a 2012 model (with a slight preference for an i7) or a 2.5 GHz mid-2011.

If one goes for a 2011 Mini the 2.5 mid-2011 has dedicated graphics vs. the other 2011s. The 2012s have integrated graphics, but while not super, they are a step up from the 2011 integrated and are okay if you don't need 3D performance (not I). Making sure a 2012 has at least paired 2x4 GB RAM does (from my remembering a page I read a day ago) enable more RAM to be set aside for video use.

Everymac.com says this about the 2012 Minis:
Quote:
The most significant internal difference is that the entry-level Mac mini "Core i5" 2.5 (Late 2012) has a dual core Core i5 processor, whereas all of the other configurations -- the Mac mini "Core i7" 2.3, "Core i7" 2.6, "Core i7" 2.3 (Server), and "Core i7" 2.6 (Server) -- have quad core Core i7 processors that provide vastly superior performance.
I guess while the per-core speed is not notably better with the i7, the fact that there's double the cores than the i5s makes it faster for people like me who have 10 applications open and something processing in each of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:32 am 
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This one's about an hour's drive from me. https://rmn.craigslist.org/sys/d/mac-mini-late-core-gb-ram/6225161867.html

Don't know if I can talk him/her down a bit to make it worth the drive. Higher than what I'm used to paying for a computer but pretty much top of the line (if you don't consider Apple's latest to be the best). Price is along the lines of e-bay http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Apple-Mac-Mini-Late-2012-Core-i7-Quad-Core-2-3GHz-120GB-SSD-1TB-HDD/201975090467 (note the local one has 500 GB SSD).


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Mac
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:29 am 
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Oh yes, twice the cores are better.


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