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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:57 pm 
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http://seekingalpha.com/article/3987877 ... les-suffer

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/apple-final ... les-slump/

Anybody that wants a computer instead of an iPhone/iPad, will not be impressed with recent iOSX upgrades, nor will the lack of upgradability be any incentive, nor will the willful breaking of previous useful Apps, nor will the umpteen bugs in recent releases do anything to impress users that really want a "Computer".

What are your thoughts?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:09 pm 
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Desktops and Laptops are on their way out.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:29 pm 
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I agree, but only because they made it so. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:51 am 
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I think a Desktop is superior for watching video, or your holiday snaps than a tablet or phone. And that is just the consumer side. Productively I can't imagine anything less, for when you have numerous spreadsheets open and other documents all open at once. Even then you have to leaf through them, unlike a real desktop where you can spread your work out even more. So there is a real place for desktop displays and the PC hardware to drive them.

However from a sales viewpoint, mobile technolgy would be the most popular. People walking into poles playing Pokemon Go is where the revenue is.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:45 am 
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Apple's sales have gone down because their hardware is pure shit for the money you pay to buy it. I mean come on, 85% of of everything they make doesn't even have a dedicated GPU. Only the very highest tier machines in their laptop and iMac line have dedicated GPUs, and even then only the iMac 5k's M395X is worth a damn, and barely at that thanks to Apple's terribad AMD drivers. It gets even more depressing when you factor in that all of Apple's lineup is outdated and in dire need of a major refresh.

For instance, their headless Mac Minis still use Intel IGPs and dual core CPUs that are underpowered to say the least. Good luck making that a HTPC - you really want quad core or better when using multithreaded decoding and encoding. Or how about that trashcan pro with its supremely overpriced set of FirePro GPUs? The very best of those GPUs, the D700s, barely function at the level of a consumer grade Radeon 7950, and you can only use one of them as a GPU. The other is entirely for OpenCL only. And because Apple basically told the Khronos Group "fuck you" when they attempted to rip off Vulkan and gave us Metal instead, we don't even get Vulkan's asynchronous compute functionality. The only hope of that is via nVidia's drivers, since Vulkan can be implemented on an app by app basis so long as the drivers contain full Vulkan support, and since Apple makes AMD's drivers, you can fugheddaboudit on those GPUs. Only nVidia's GPUs have hope there, and that's wishful thinking.

And to top all of that miserable news off, Apple appears to be heading down the Polaris GPU path, eschewing nVidia yet again. And Polaris is already verified as being a) power hungry, b) drawing WAY more power than the PCIe spec limits normally allow for, c) and generating more heat due to increased power draw and TDP. I'd lay ten to a twenty that Apple has AMD downclock any Polaris GPUs used in Macs severely since Apple's "thin >>>>>>>>>>>>> everything else" fetish means there is literally zero usable heat dissipation for a GPU like those in the Polaris class. Any Mac with one of those is bound to thermally throttle under any kind of load since the same heatsink will have to dissipate both CPU and GPU heat in Apple's designs.

Gamers, which are the bulk of Apple's buyers these days, are continually disappointed by Apple's offerings and the fact that "it just [no longer] works". All Macs using the AMD R9 GPUs are experiencing massive stuttering and/or slowdown in virtually every game. They're thermally throttling and Apple's "just get the driver functional and bail" attitude means fixes almost never get put in. Gamers were lucky as hell that Apple got the errata microcode patch in the AMD drivers that resolves things like the Desolate Sands crash in Diablo 3. They're still waiting on the fixes for the R9 series, which couldn't come at a worse time for WoW players since WoW 7.0 (Legion Prepatch) is in two days and the combination of Metal still sucking, lacking features, and the R9 GPU issues means AMD based Macs are going to have a shitty experience all around and performance will tank due to the new graphics engine updates (only OpenGL 3.2 and Metal are available now, with OpenGL 3.2 being dog slow and Metal missing a plethora of features such as HBAO+, which could take a massive load off the CPU).

nVidia's GPUs, on the other hand? Constant web driver updates with plenty of bugfixes. I may have to dial things back slightly since I'm using "only" a GTX 780 in my Hackintosh, but I'm still going to be ahead of any official Apple hardware and light years ahead of any AMD based Apple hardware, including the iSlug 5k.

My Hack Pro still beats the shit out of every Mac made today even nearly three years after being built. Once nVidia puts GTX 1080 support into their web drivers, I'll be able to brute force past Apple's horrible Metal performance and regain some semblance of speed in my games. And I'll have sick shit like a decoupled front and back end renderer in both OS X and Windows, plus Vulkan support for games like DOOM 2016, which blazes past Ludicrous thanks to the new Vulkan patch.

Apple made it clear it doesn't care one shit about gamers, and that's where its core Mac sales are coming from these days. People that love OS X and want to game on it. The "production" (A/V and photoshop/Maya) crowd certainly isn't buying Macs. Not after the trashcan pro fiasco. People that just want web browsing and email functionality might buy Mac laptops, but are more likely to just go for a much less expensive PC laptop that offers better speed for fewer Benjamins.

Apple treats the desktop like an iDevice and it shows. And people are waking up to the fact that all of Apple's machines are now throwaway machines. No expandability. No upgradability. No resale value anymore. Extremely fast obsolescence. And a form factor design that screams premature hardware failure in the name of planned obsolesence/faster forced upgrade cycles.

I like OS X. I don't like Apple anymore. That's why they don't get my money outside of the ADC program that lets me get OS updates as they come out. At $99/year it's chump change compared to spending $2k+ every 2-3 years just to keep hardware up to date enough to be mediocre, but never good (don't even tell me trying to drive a 5k display with a single laptop GPU is anything but stupid).

Apple is getting it's comeuppance. And it's about time.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:20 am 
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While you could say their hardware needs a refresh, anyone who owns one of their current computers will eventually discover they've bought a bad product. No internal expansion capabilities whatsoever. All it takes is a conversation with any reasonably competent technical friend to realize they can't upgrade storage, RAM, anything, to find out they could have spent their money with a manufacturer that doesn't expect them to run out and buy a whole new system once a part of it doesn't meet their new requirements.

The slow refresh, though, is what happens when you go the all-proprietary route that Apple's chosen. You can't simply roll in a parts from any of the myriad of PC component manufacturers. You have to engineer your own part from scratch, even a whole new motherboard, just to get a bump. That takes a lot more time. If they would go with standard DIMMs, SATA, M.2, etc. they could quickly and cheaply update their hardware for minimal cost, yielding a greater profit margin, and happier customers (who could keep their systems long enough for them to have paid for themselves).

The iMac line is the most glaring example of Apple's current goals. They glue the system together so the edges of the system can be wafer thin, yet it bulges out in the middle because they have to stick components somewhere. If they would just admit that an iMac isn't an iPad and that it's not going to be as thin as an iPad maybe, just maybe, they could have a thicker system with better airflow with adequate access to components. The poor things bake themselves to death.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:59 am 
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So what's the solution (no, I don't mean to Apple's bottom line)?

Estimate how many years you may have to live and run out and buy a box of older models and coddle them with mothballed software, hoping they can still connect to the Internet in 10 years?

Everybody start learning how to build a hackintosh even though it won't do anything about horrible Apple software changes the hackintosh will have to run?

Send a letter to Apple feedback? :fishsmack:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:20 pm 
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Maybe they can hire Gil Amelio.

Or eat up martha, I mean John Sculley.

Image

But, in all seriousness, the problem with Intel systems is they basically plateaued in performance a few years ago. Now you can get more cores and you can get a beast of a system, but unless you're really crunching numbers (professional video, etc.) there's little difference in terms of how one desktop "feels" in comparison to one another. The GPUs are where all the magic is happening now, the CPUs... not so much. And given that Apple really isn't using discrete GPUs in their laptops, you pretty much could get a non-retina Ivy Bridge MBP and have a very hard time telling the difference between that and the soldered-on RAM glued together Retina MacBook Pro (though you will notice heat-related issues like crazy within a couple months of using the retina MBP, the tiny crevices that pass for ventilation get clogged with dust ridiculously fast).


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:05 pm 
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I'd buy a new Mac today if (choose any two: ['RAM', 'storage', 'processor']) were upgradable, but since they're not I sure as hell am NOT going to drop $1700 on a system that's both overpriced, underspec'd and a year out of date. Really Apple??

Don't worry though Apple, I'm sure tablet computers will remain the hot new thing forever and you'll never run out of earth shattering innovations to keep the iPhone at least two steps ahead of all other telephones, so there's absolutely nothing to worry about or something. :roll:

Personally, I would not mind Apple feeling some heat because it might coax the company back down to Earth a little bit.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:43 am 
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But, in all seriousness, the problem with Intel systems is they basically plateaued in performance a few years ago. Now you can get more cores and you can get a beast of a system, but unless you're really crunching numbers (professional video, etc.) there's little difference in terms of how one desktop "feels" in comparison to one another. The GPUs are where all the magic is happening now, the CPUs... not so much. And given that Apple really isn't using discrete GPUs in their laptops, you pretty much could get a non-retina Ivy Bridge MBP and have a very hard time telling the difference between that and the soldered-on RAM glued together Retina MacBook Pro (though you will notice heat-related issues like crazy within a couple months of using the retina MBP, the tiny crevices that pass for ventilation get clogged with dust ridiculously fast).


Having a 59xx/69xx Intel CPU definitely has a better feel to it than the other Intel CPUs. Those additional 24 PCIe lanes mean you can double up on GPUs with no bandwidth loss (assuming Windows of course - OS X is still impotent in the SLI/CrossFire arena) and still have eight lanes left over for a sick PCIe NVMe SSD. When you're playing games, 3 GB/sec is nothing to sneeze at for loading. Oh, and your choice of awesome PSU to feed those hungry GPUs (and CPU) would rock as well.

Oh yeah, and no overheating. When nVidia's drivers get Pascal support added in and I can affort it, a GTX 1080 (or its Ti update if I end up late to the game) are in the cards for me.

As for CPUs plateauing, keep in mind newer generations have higher memory bandwidth support (DDR4 vs. DDR3), which has a pretty noticeable impact on performance.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:15 pm 
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I work with a good 75 or so people at my current employer. Only myself and another guy play games on computers, both of us do it on PCs. The rest just play mobile games, if they play them at all. About half of those people are on Macs at work and home. Neither of us use crossfire/sli, though we both build our own PCs from components.

Once you upgrade the RAM in an older MBP the difference between new and old for the tasks they perform is minimal, at best. One guy comes into work on his off hours to perform tasks on a Core2-based iMac because it has more RAM than his newer iMac at home and his editing workflow runs better with more RAM.

Apple needs an expandable tower system, not just for gamers, but for professionals who need a capable system that can be economically expanded (the "everything external" method they're currently wedded to makes upgrades cost more than jobs will pay). Their trashcan is woefully outdated and overpriced, even when it wasn't outdated (but especially now). I just don't see them reversing course away from their "you will do what we tell you to do with our systems" strategy.


Last edited by MonkeyBoy on Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:22 pm 
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I'm quite certain they want to kill off the Mac… you can ship & stock maybe a 100 iPhones in the space of one 27" iMac! :upset:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:45 am 
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I Bouvet my late 2009 27" iMac in late 2009 and it's been great útil the graphics card failed recently. I'm still looking at options for repair.

A new machine was never an option as only a complete fool would lay down the cash they are asking for such poor hardware.

Stock storage capacities haven't gone up in nearly SIX years. It's crazy. Nothing has really improved all that much and things are in fact worse than before on these glued up, welded, non-ugradeable machines.

I never needed a thinner iMac. I never ever look at it from the side. I don't need a retina display and I definitely don't need the price tag.

Prices are utterly obscene. I mean OBSCENE.

Mac iOS X is going exactly where I don't need it and the system is being lobotomised with every release.

I celebrate lowly sales as it the only way Apple will learn. I hope they take a dive.

I don't mind paying somewhat more if I get decent after sales service. The graphics card in my iMac (more than likely toasted by the thermal design) is not even available as a paid repair. I remember when Apple would support parts for up to ten years.mnoe they want me t dump a perfectly good machine because of a 'simple' graphics issue.

I refuse to buy anything in the current lineup.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:08 am 
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Amen.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:14 pm 
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I fully expect the next iMac refresh to do away with the 27s user-expandable RAM. If you want upgradeable RAM you either have to buy that or the trashcan, everything else is soldered onto the motherboard.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:44 pm 
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I just bought a new iMac 27" and it is real easy to add ram. It has a little door just for that.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:00 pm 
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Yeah, it's sad how there's only two models capable of adding RAM.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:01 pm 
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the 2 models is news to me too! crazy... :bonk:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:59 pm 
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MonkeyBoy wrote:
Yeah, it's sad how there's only two models capable of adding RAM.


There are also only two models/tiers that have discrete GPUs as well. Apple hardare just plain sucks right now.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:39 pm 
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Actually the 15" MacBook Pro has a discrete GPU as well (well, its switchable between Iris Pro and the R9).

However its RAM is still soldered on. And I hope you don't need more than 16GB because that's the most they'll ship it with. :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:38 pm 
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Apple seems to have leveled off a bit on RAM hikes although they still underestimate "minimum". Minimum is barely keeping the computer running and maybe using TextEdit. RAM minimum has only doubled from 1 GB to 2 GB since Snow Leopard days, though in reality you can say it has actually doubled from 2 GB to 4 GB for the same realistically low level usage. Still, that's less than the 4x hike between OSX 10.4 and 10.6.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:11 pm 
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I could not imagine buying a computer today with non-upgradable RAM and any amount less than 16 GB. Maybe if you buy a new computer every year and don't use it for anything but reading Twitters you could get by with 8 GB. It's a travesty that Apple is still selling 4 GB machines with soldered RAM. Aren't the bloody telephones with more RAM than that these days?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:22 am 
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MonkeyBoy wrote:
Actually the 15" MacBook Pro has a discrete GPU as well (well, its switchable between Iris Pro and the R9).

However its RAM is still soldered on. And I hope you don't need more than 16GB because that's the most they'll ship it with. :lol:


As I said, only two models/tiers have the discrete GPU: 15" MBP and 27" iMac. The rest use IGPs. No, I'm not counting the trashcan pros as they never had IGPs to begin with as Xeons don't contain them and 99.9999999999999999999% of consumers wouldn't go near a Mac Pro with its exhorbitant pricing.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:46 pm 
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Yeah. But they have three models with discrete GPUs.

And consumers shouldn't be buying any of Apple's computer products at this point.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:40 pm 
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I'm gonna be a naysayer...

I don't really care about separate GPU. I don't play games. As long as it drives my monitors I'm good to go. I don't see any problems.

My macbook pro retina is fabulous, fast enough for just about anything. I do wish for faster video exports but... I always have and I always will. :) Now that 4k video is happening...

Our mac pro is a lot better at dealing with 4k of course. I'd imagine that 4k 27" iMac has the chops for it.

I think computers have become almost commodities...


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