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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:54 pm 
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Personally, I'm looking forward to someone hacking MacOS on to an iPad. This cuts both ways. And I remain optimistic that speed will be just fine. Apple has an excellent chip design team and TSMC has top notch manufacturing facilities. I don't see any reason the next generation of Apple ARM chips has to be slow.

- Anonymous


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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:16 pm 
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Anonymous wrote:
Personally, I'm looking forward to someone hacking MacOS on to an iPad. This cuts both ways. And I remain optimistic that speed will be just fine. Apple has an excellent chip design team and TSMC has top notch manufacturing facilities. I don't see any reason the next generation of Apple ARM chips has to be slow.

- Anonymous


Kinda been waiting for someone to say that.. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:24 pm 
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They don't necessarily have to be slow, but thankfully if done right they can be scaled up to desktop CPU die sizes, which would absolutely destroy Intel and AMD combined. Remember, Intel and AMD use CISC, not RISC like PowerPC and ARM do. The reason ARM is "efficient" is it is a RISC architecture. It'll be power efficient, but it will have downsides in some other areas. Ultimately it's a question of whether the downsides outweigh the benefits or vice versa, which will depend significantly on the workload you will have going forward. Synthetic benches are only so telling. Real world mixed workloads tell the real story.

I think Apple's SoCs will be fine, but it's going to be some time before they can match the pro level power of the Intel/AMD HEDT and enterprise (server) line. And AMD scales very well, something ARM has yet to do on a desktop environment. ARM has room to scale, but it's all up to Apple to make it scale. And they'll need to in a big way if they're going to win over pros again, especially given the holdouts for ARM64.

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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:22 pm 
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Anonymous wrote:
It seems likely we'll see some worst-case benchmarks not too long after Apple starts shipping those dev units.

Well that didn't take long.
Quote:
As for the results, the Apple silicon-equipped developer kits average 811 for single-threaded Geekbench and 2781 for multi-threaded. That's about 20 percent slower than the entry-level i3-1000ng4 powered Macbook Air's single-core results and 38 percent faster than its multi-threaded results. Higher-end Macs produce much higher numbers, though.

And that's running translated code, which isn't too bad. Of course there are lies, damn lies, and benchmarks, so I'm not comfortable extrapolating too far from these results, but considering this is probably the slowest results we'll ever see from an ARM Mac, that's pretty encouraging.

These systems could end up being really fast. Consider that the chip actually used in new Macs will be either a 5nm or 7nm part (while Intel is still struggling with its comparable 10nm process), two years newer than the iPad chip, wrapped in a more generous power and thermal envelopes, and custom designed for for that application.

I would laugh if they're eventually faster running (at least single threaded) Intel code than high-spec Intel parts, and I still can't see myself buying one in the foreseeable (4+ years) future.

- Anonymous


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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:38 pm 
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Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
It seems likely we'll see some worst-case benchmarks not too long after Apple starts shipping those dev units.

Well that didn't take long.
Quote:
As for the results, the Apple silicon-equipped developer kits average 811 for single-threaded Geekbench and 2781 for multi-threaded. That's about 20 percent slower than the entry-level i3-1000ng4 powered Macbook Air's single-core results and 38 percent faster than its multi-threaded results. Higher-end Macs produce much higher numbers, though.

And that's running translated code, which isn't too bad. Of course there are lies, damn lies, and benchmarks, so I'm not comfortable extrapolating too far from these results, but considering this is probably the slowest results we'll ever see from an ARM Mac, that's pretty encouraging.

These systems could end up being really fast. Consider that the chip actually used in new Macs will be either a 5nm or 7nm part (while Intel is still struggling with its comparable 10nm process), two years newer than the iPad chip, wrapped in a more generous power and thermal envelopes, and custom designed for for that application.

I would laugh if they're eventually faster running (at least single threaded) Intel code than high-spec Intel parts, and I still can't see myself buying one in the foreseeable (4+ years) future.

- Anonymous


So the transition kit is a Mac Mini..

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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:28 pm 
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The transition/dev kit is an iPad Pro stuffed inside a Mac Mini chassis.

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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:45 pm 
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Indeed, it doesn't even have a proper PCIe bus. I heard its a slightly unique SoC because it has ethernet glommed in, but that may be incorrect...


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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:20 pm 
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A lot of ARM designs just attach Ethernet to the USB bus.

I don't know how I feel about this.

Personally I am in a very different place now than I was in the Classic and original Rosetta eras and I'm not actually trying to run that much old stuff but I'm a little uneasy that Apple might just be sliding right into the Intel strategy of core spamming.


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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:26 pm 
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MonkeyBoy wrote:
Indeed, it doesn't even have a proper PCIe bus. I heard its a slightly unique SoC because it has ethernet glommed in, but that may be incorrect...


ARM can and does work with PCIe. Cable modems actually have PCIe lanes on the ARM CPUs. It's all about how the manufacturer decides to do things. With Apple one never knows. :(

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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:16 pm 
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Is this another way of saying that ALL third party GPUs are out of the picture? I mean all the graphics are now driven from the SoC in the tablet & phones, no?

Would the whole concept of direct-x to metal totally dry up?


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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:48 am 
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Squishy Tia wrote:
ARM can and does work with PCIe. Cable modems actually have PCIe lanes on the ARM CPUs. It's all about how the manufacturer decides to do things. With Apple one never knows. :(
Yes, any design can have anything, but based on reports from people familiar with the AwhateverXYZ in the iPad Pro I read it lacks an off-chip PCIe interface.

This is a preliminary design and not necessarily indicative of the final system. Just like how PPC development systems were different from the final systems, though the 601 systems were pretty close because that was IBM's transition CPU.


Last edited by MonkeyBoy on Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:48 pm 
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I've read mumblings that eventually they will transition the 50k machine to apple silicon. IF that were to come to pass, yeah they'd have to figure out a path to a PCI bus. However, I suspect we may see "ios graphics" in the SoC AND wonder how it would fare against either nVidia or AMD PCI card GPUs. Somehow I find it hard to believe their integrated graphics are going to be at all competitive with any third party GPU, even the low end ones. I mean, fine for Candy Crush and Solitaire but for a WoW, Skyrim, or FFXIV? Anything think Unreal Engine 5 is ever going to run on apple silicon?


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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:08 pm 
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Quote:
I've read mumblings that eventually they will transition the 50k machine to apple silicon. IF that were to come to pass, yeah they'd have to figure out a path to a PCI bus

Why, Apple drops useful, even important features & ports & petooey to the user... I'm waiting for Apple Silicon to Self Destruct when the Warranty is gone. :(


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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:42 pm 
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Unapproved non-App Store software detected on boot drive, locking boot drive until Apple Tax is paid.


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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:16 pm 
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You have used your Mac more than 30 minutes today, if you want more time please enter a method of payment.


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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:51 am 
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"Update available" please bring your device to genius bar for exchange options.

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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:30 pm 
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Apple says it will continue to offer Thunderbolt in ARM Macs.

That modestly suggests, but does not prove, it will still be possible to connect an external GPU. It doesn't, however, prove there will be drivers to support it.

Despite our cynicism, I think Apple recognizes that Macs are not iPads. They may in the future change their mind, but at the moment I'm less worried than most of us seem to be. The long term possibility of "convergence", or reduction to a lowest common denominator, is definitely concerning, and I don't want all my Mac applications to be crappy iPhone apps bodged on top of OS X (or whatever Apple is calling its operating system for Macs this week). It feels to me like the convergence will be driven principally by application developers primarily targeting mobile interfaces, and Macs will suffer for that in the long term, but I don't think Apple is actively trying to kill the Mac. The announcement that it's not abandoning Thunderbolt is a very important signal that way.

- Anonymous


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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:33 pm 
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Anonymous wrote:
Apple says it will continue to offer Thunderbolt in ARM Macs.

That modestly suggests, but does not prove, it will still be possible to connect an external GPU. It doesn't, however, prove there will be drivers to support it.

Despite our cynicism, I think Apple recognizes that Macs are not iPads. They may in the future change their mind, but at the moment I'm less worried than most of us seem to be. The long term possibility of "convergence", or reduction to a lowest common denominator, is definitely concerning, and I don't want all my Mac applications to be crappy iPhone apps bodged on top of OS X (or whatever Apple is calling its operating system for Macs this week). It feels to me like the convergence will be driven principally by application developers primarily targeting mobile interfaces, and Macs will suffer for that in the long term, but I don't think Apple is actively trying to kill the Mac. The announcement that it's not abandoning Thunderbolt is a very important signal that way.

- Anonymous


I thought they’d kill thunderbolt., since it’s been around since when, 2011, 2010?

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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:32 pm 
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Why kill TB when you can sell a $50 TB To TB adapter?

Anon, I suggest we call the rMacs & that they run iOSXi...


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 Post subject: Re: ARM-based Macs
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:18 am 
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A $50 TB ti TB adapter plugged into a $25 TB to FW800 adapter.


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