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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:44 am 
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Yes, any Dell or PC card would need to be flashed with Mac ROM.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:11 am 
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BDAqua wrote:
Yes, any Dell or PC card would need to be flashed with Mac ROM.


OK, thanks . . . but, what then am I searching for would be my question???
Code:
ATI Rage 128 Pro graphics card especially one flashed for Macintosh
??? Is that what
Code:
Mac ROM
would be indicating??

Would there be other options for video cards for that computer? "Better" options??

eep


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:28 am 
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There were Mac cards...

https://www.ebay.com/p/ATI-Rage-128-Pro ... 1137870354

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/pp ... s.1907469/

See japamacs page here on the best AGP cards for G4s & G5s...

http://www.jcsenterprises.com/Japamacs_ ... 42BEE.html


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:45 pm 
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BDAqua wrote:


BD:

Thanks for doing that, knowing what to use for the search is obviously the key . . . I think right now I'm using VGA for that computer, my display has VGA & DVI . . . one for the PM and one for the MP . . . . I'll check it in a bit . . . . Prices didn't look too bad . . . considering it is "ancient" tech . . . .

eep


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:26 pm 
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:D


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:55 pm 
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Oddly enough I have an X800XT for my G5 that's an AGP Pro model replete with ADC connector. I got it off eBay for a little over $100 years ago. Came in perfect OEM packaging but I swear it's got to be a counterfeit or at least from an excess run off the ATI production line because it was brand freakin' new years after production had stopped. And it shipped from China. The fan died about 2 years later and eBay came to the rescue again with an OEM style fan that slipped right on where the original one came. Of course it fit a range of ATI cards so that was easy to find.

Traditionally the best cards for G4s were the GeForce 4Ti and the Voodoo 5. The former is likely more useful than the latter since driver support for the latter is a challenge now. I had a Radeon 9800 Pro or something like that which was available in a Mac flavor. These are non-cross flashed PC cards, which can have issues with needing some of the pins cut or taped over. For the longest time OWC sold some MDD 9600 cards that had the pins cut for older G4s.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:11 am 
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@MB:

Thanks for that info . . . I did read thru BD's links, I think the "9800 Pro" was mentioned on one of them . . . one thing I saw was that the eBay linked search results said the same thing that mine said, something like "Currently out of stock" . . . and then under that were "items related to the search" . . . that seemed to be "in stock"???

I'll have to look into it further, prices seem to be "low" . . . but then assuming that the items would be from the same era . . . and wouldn't necessarily have any "guarantees"???

eep


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:21 am 
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The trick is to get an old enough card that you don't have to do anything crazy like cutting traces on the card. Apple used some previously unused connections for their purposes, but the newer AGP standard used those pins, hence the need to cut the traces.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:11 am 
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MonkeyBoy wrote:
The trick is to get an old enough card that you don't have to do anything crazy like cutting traces on the card. Apple used some previously unused connections for their purposes, but the newer AGP standard used those pins, hence the need to cut the traces.


@MB:

Exactomundo . . . I like it to be "plug n play" . . . I don't exactly want to "cut pins" or try to figure out which pin is the one to cut and which one is the one to not cut . . . etc.

Other issue I see is that on everymac.com the specs show the cards are "2x" . . . but many of these cards showing on eBay and so forth are showing "4x/8x" . . . it says the "card is running in a 2x AGP slot" . . . is something where a 4x/8x card (whatever that means) . . . could run in the 2x slot, but it will just run at 2x speeds/capacity? Or, this is something that has to be 2x??

Spent another fast look at eBay . . . under supposedly "AGP" . . . looked like most of the cards were for "Windows" before Windows 10 . . . .

Is there a way to test the card that I have in there now? Like can it be checked with a multimeter for anything? Since it is more or less the last major component that hasn't been changed I'm thinking that it is "the problem" . . . but, then, what else, could be the mobo and the AGP slot connection?? Seems like the card would be "easy" fix, but getting the dots to line up for "Flashed for mac" and "AGP" . . . and, not also "close to zombie-dom" . . . ???


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:28 am 
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2x & 4x cards have unused pins that Apple uses for purposes I've since forgotten. 8x cards use those pins.

The only way to make a non-Mac specific 8x card work in a 2x or 4x Mac is to disconnect those pins.

http://thomas.perrier.name/otherStuff/a ... ertEN.html

I wonder if I still have my old Mac edition card? I have most of my old G4 in bits and pieces in boxes. Not going to have a chance to look for about a week though.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:14 am 
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MonkeyBoy wrote:
2x & 4x cards have unused pins that Apple uses for purposes I've since forgotten. 8x cards use those pins.

The only way to make a non-Mac specific 8x card work in a 2x or 4x Mac is to disconnect those pins.

http://thomas.perrier.name/otherStuff/a ... ertEN.html

I wonder if I still have my old Mac edition card? I have most of my old G4 in bits and pieces in boxes. Not going to have a chance to look for about a week though.


@MB:

Thanks for the link, read through it . . . more or less looks "Greek" to me . . . "plug n play" is my speed . . . . Well, if you would have something that would work happy to work with you on it . . . I'm not in a rush on it . . . . The olde Sawtooth is patiently sitting there supporting some papers and stuff . . . other stuff to do as well other than trolling eBay trying to find Mac friendly AGP card, etc . . . .

eep


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:34 pm 
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The Powermac 3,1 story . . . possibly is "over" . . . . I found a link on the OWC site for a "Mac edition Radeon video card for G4" for the low, low price of $28.95 (something like that) . . . and it was backordered . . . showed up a couple days back. This AM had a few minutes to slap it in and boot the computer . . . the display light flashed blue for a second but the display stayed black . . . thinking that perhaps it was the Yaboot menu showing I tried to hit "L" key . . . went into a TTY with a "PCIxxxxxxxxx" type of message . . . so the display was "working" . . . cycled through that message a few times . . . shut it down by pb . . . rebooted, again got the chime of happiness . . . this time the Yaboot menu showed up, clicked "L" . . . got the "ubuntu 16.04" splash . . . then it went back into the TTY . . . some modules wee listed . . . and then the dmesg stuff . . . and the display got rough-ish . . . . Shut it down.

Rebooted again, this time went for OSX . . . got the spinning tool wheel . . . and a minute or two later got the OSX log in window . . . logged into the admin account . . . super crispy desktop photo, very, very rich from 10.5 Nature photos . . . Software Updater opened . . . had a Security Update listed . . . clicked on that . . . "has to restart to install" . . . did that . . . got the OSX cig bar showing the download . . . got up to about 51% . . . then screen went black . . . back . . . back . . . back in to the black . . . the darkness . . . . Motor still running in the computer . . . nothing showing up in the display . . . .

Only "technical" thing I noticed was that the lock screw didn't exactly hold the card squarely in the what "PCI" slot?? the connector slot . . . after I put the screw in I pushed the card back down into the slot . . . but, possibly the card could have moved up? And, the other thing I didn't do . . . I watched a macsales video on the install . . . didn't say anything about "set the PRAM" . . . but, in my enthusiasm to boot the new video card . . . I didn't do anything except boot the card . . . . I think after the darkness screen, I did again try the reboot, and the last time . . . no happiness chime . . . which is the way it was the last time I booted the olde G4 . . . a few starts with chime, a few minutes of **exhilaration** . . . nice video . . . followed by quick return to the Zombie state . . . . :upset: :bonk: :whip: :badteeth: :confused: :classic-eek: :emphatic-eek: :snail:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:18 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:53 pm 
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BDAqua wrote:
.


Yep . . . not enough tears to get this one "released" . . . was truly hoping the new card would get it done . . . .

eep


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:16 pm 
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So if I've been keeping score right it sounds like you've replaced the CPU and video card. Only two things left are power supply and motherboard. Given the squirrelly nature of things my money would be on the power supply, but it could be the motherboard. PS is pretty easy to replace, just have to snake out the power cables, take out the old PS, install the new PS, re-snake its power cables back where the old one went. There's some articles on xlr8yourmac.com about using an ATX power supply but you'll have to be careful now and get one with all the appropriate voltages, which is harder now because they've updated the spec multiple times since then. Rosewill used to make an ATX12V v1.0/1.1 supply, not sure if its still around (not), though the problem is that Rosewill supplies usually last about 2 days past the 1 year warranty. This guy apparently makes adapter cables so it'd be a pretty easy drop-in replacement:
http://atxg4.com/sawtooth.html

Motherboard is harder to replace since it means disconnecting everything and replacing the board. One nice thing is that sawtooth has 4 DIMM slots and digital audio & up are 3, so looking through eBay for a board seems pretty easy.

As far as Linux goes I'm not actually all that surprised. You need to boot Linux into safe boot or safe mode or single user mode and change the graphics card driver so it can work with the new video card. xwindows.conf or xorg.conf or whatever the heck it is, I've been using terminal-only Linux for so long I don't remember.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:28 pm 
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Whoops, wrote too soon. Looks like MDD boards also have 4 DIMM slots. However they're blue and look wildly different from your existing board. If the DIMM slots are in the same spot, there's 4 of them, and there's an AGP slot, its probably a sawtooth.

If you had PC133 RAM you could go up to a Digital Audio board but that'd need a different PSU (or at least a different adapter cable if you opted the ATX route). Oh and the CPU would need to be changed since it'd be overclocked on a 133Mhz board vs. a 100Mhz board (it'd be a 33% overclock, which is a little too optimistic). Not sure if there's a mounting difference, all I know is Quicksilver to DA is easy.


Last edited by MonkeyBoy on Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:53 pm 
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MonkeyBoy wrote:
So if I've been keeping score right it sounds like you've replaced the CPU and video card. Only two things left are power supply and motherboard. Given the squirrelly nature of things my money would be on the power supply, but it could be the motherboard. PS is pretty easy to replace, just have to snake out the power cables, take out the old PS, install the new PS, re-snake its power cables back where the old one went. There's some articles on xlr8yourmac.com about using an ATX power supply but you'll have to be careful now and get one with all the appropriate voltages, which is harder now because they've updated the spec multiple times since then. Rosewill used to make an ATX12V v1.0/1.1 supply, not sure if its still around (not), though the problem is that Rosewill supplies usually last about 2 days past the 1 year warranty. This guy apparently makes adapter cables so it'd be a pretty easy drop-in replacement:
http://atxg4.com/sawtooth.html


@MB:

Yes, that's correct on the cpu and video card, along with RAM and PRAM battery . . . and Hard drive. So, OK, the games could be continued on replacing power supply, might make sense . . . awhile back BD asked me about the "red light" on the mobo, which at that time was lit, redly . . . . But, let's say it's PS that is next move . . . I looked at your "atxg4" link, which I guess is this guys product that would let a newer PS be used to connect into the Sawtooth . . . I've seen mention here of "ATX" power supplies, but that would be "maiden voyage" . . . I can do R & R stuff, but "soldering" is not one of my talents, I'm an old wood carpenter, if it's wooden I can figure it out . . . metal . . . not so much. Is this another one of those "search eBay for old stuff on sale that comes from G4's"??? Or are you suggesting that "Rosewill" [??rosewill.com??] would have this ATX12V v1.0/1.1 power supply, and that would be something that would be "unplug old unit, unmount old unit, mount new unit, plug in new unit, clean hands, reboot the computer . . ." type of thing?

Quote:
Motherboard is harder to replace since it means disconnecting everything and replacing the board. One nice thing is that sawtooth has 4 DIMM slots and digital audio & up are 3, so looking through eBay for a board seems pretty easy.


Alrighty, so you are saying that if we get passed the PS move, and the problem is still there then that would increase the probability that "It's the motherboard, John . . . the motherboard . . ."???? And, then, this would be one of those "search eBay for G4 motherboards" all floating in the sea of used motherboards on eBay, but the telltale sign would be the correct mobo would have 4 DIMM slots for RAM, and the newer ones (which would not work??) would have the telltale 3 DIMM slots????

Quote:
As far as Linux goes I'm not actually all that surprised. You need to boot Linux into safe boot or safe mode or single user mode and change the graphics card driver so it can work with the new video card. xwindows.conf or xorg.conf or whatever the heck it is, I've been using terminal-only Linux for so long I don't remember.


And, finally, OK . . . mea culpa . . . I guess I was thinking that the modules are sort of general, like if I had thought to run "lsmod" it would have shown something like
Code:
radeon
in one line . . . and I was thinking that going from one radeon card to another might not be enough to break the video . . . ??? Over on my iMac 800 it was a tad nightmare-ish to get "xorg.conf" . . . configured such that it would show anything other than a black screen, or 1/3 green and 2/3 black . . . fading to black . . . . On this PM there never seemed to be too much problem getting a basic TTY . . . possibly I might have just done a fresh install . . . sometimes easier to do that that fiddle with the details . . . . The other part of this is that PPC linux was undersupported and now stuff is just breaking and nobody upstream is fixing it . . . it's kind of a mess.

Problem now is that the machine is back to not chiming on boot, it "powers up" and fan motor is spinning, etc . . . but back to no power getting over to display . . . seems like if it sits for a couple of months it will again boot and chime and run for a while, before again fading back into the blackness . . . last time it was for an hour or more, this time maybe 15 minutes or so, 3 or 4 boot chimes, then a few tests with no chime . . . .

eep


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:00 pm 
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MonkeyBoy wrote:
Whoops, wrote too soon. Looks like MDD boards also have 4 DIMM slots. However they're blue and look wildly different from your existing board. If the DIMM slots are in the same spot, there's 4 of them, and there's an AGP slot, its probably a sawtooth. If you had PC133 RAM you could go up to a Digital Audio board but that'd need a different PSU (or at least a different adapter cable if you opted the ATX route).


@MB:

Also posted back before I saw this . . . I think I did go with "PC133 RAM" based upon what might have been recommended by the forum here . . . have to check on that, but I think I did go with "newer" spec RAM at the time . . . it's not like there's a whole ton of RAM capacity . . . like, if being able to upgrade the mobo to newer and the cpu and HD would plug n play . . . the RAM thing might not be worth trying to save??? It's mostly for sh*ts & giggles & learning about what's under the hood . . . plus being able to get back to the 13 years worth of data that's in there . . . .

eep


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