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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:30 am 
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I was thinking a hole saw myself.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:37 am 
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BDAqua wrote:
I was thinking a hole saw myself.

Yeah, with a vacuum nozzle running close by to prevent the aluminum debris from falling inside. Tricky part if this ever became a real consideration would be figuring out just where to make that hole, and if the battery would be near enough to provide reasonable access. Plus being 100% confident that cutting such a hole wouldn't cut or disturb something inside. Need X-Ray vision.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:44 am 
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We need a dead one or 2 to practice & measure on.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:52 am 
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BDAqua wrote:
We need a dead one or 2 to practice & measure on.

Sounds right. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:35 pm 
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A shame they changed the design from the original slab iMacs... the back was plastic. You could drill a hole without worries into that. On the other hand I think those boards were facing forward.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:16 pm 
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MonkeyBoy wrote:
A shame they changed the design from the original slab iMacs... the back was plastic. You could drill a hole without worries into that. On the other hand I think those boards were facing forward.

Yes they faced forward. On my early model, I remember seeing the battery after removing the LCD when I replaced the HDD a few months ago.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:05 am 
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According to the iFixit instructions, I have only a very rough idea where one might make some kind of access hole. Looks like it's maybe a few inches above the center bottom of the case, above the RAM door. If so, the stand would be in the way and would probably need to be removed. Or maybe nearer the right side, since the optical drive needs to be removed for access to the logic board. Would anyone else care to take look and try to determine where on the back case it would be? Also is there anything covering the logic board where the battery sits? If there is, that would be a deal breaker. Does it look like such a hole would provide adequate access--maybe using a pair of forceps insulated at the ends to grab it once its pried out with a spudger?

And while I'm at it, does it look like the board would be forbiddingly close to the back to make this kind of cut, even with a good carbide fine teeth hole saw? Unless it can be determined (very unlikely) that there's enough room, another problem would be needing to do this without a pilot bit, as that would likely enter too far into the interior.

Or, since there's no way to know any of this with any certainty, please just tell me that this project is too crazy.


https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iMac+Intel ... ement/1970


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:36 pm 
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WZZZ wrote:
Also is there anything covering the logic board where the battery sits? If there is, that would be a deal breaker.

I'd say that is the obstacle. I don't think there is a clear line of sight between the logic board and the back of the case. Looking at the logic board in situ Step 32 and then pulled away Step 33*, reference the green circuit board in the two photos and there shows a whole lot of other stuff (a fan?) underneath the green circuit board which would appear to block any clear path from the back of the case to the battery.

* in Step 33 you can see the battery on the back of the board.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:27 pm 
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I think there's a large insulating pad/layer, to prevent shorting across bare metal. I know its there on the power supply bits but I don't recall if its there on the motherboard on your model. iFixit shows full disassemblies of some models, usually done right after they come out, and those would be useful for determining what's at the back of the case.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:47 am 
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Thanks Roam, MB. Whether or not there's some kind of insulating pad covering the rear of the logic board (iFixit doesn't mention anything about this and I think they would, since such a pad, if it existed, would need to be removed for access to the battery), and even if there's nothing in the way back there, the one major unknown remains how to determine the position of a hole exactly above the battery, which is impossible while flying bind.

I made a few calls to various repair outfits, including one to an Apple Authorized, who said they wouldn't work on this machine, since if they break something they can't get parts from Apple any longer. Another one, not an AASP, said that they have never heard of a PRAM battery going bad on one of these machines. I did point out that that might be because usually something else, like a GPU, dies from overheating before that can happen, and they agreed--most people have no idea how hot these can get get before the SMC decides to ramp up the fans, and don't use any kind of fan control program.

While kind of interesting while it lasted, I think I'm giving up on this project.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:29 pm 
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In the old days, they used to sell X-Ray glasses in comic books for a buck!

https://tinyurl.com/y9k2gpsb


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:02 pm 
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Er, no, the pad I'm talking about would be affixed to the rear of the iMac, it wouldn't be a cover on the motherboard. If you can see in the iFixit instructions there's a similar pad behind the power supply when they remove it. Sometimes Apple just uses a thin plastic sheet with adhesive on one side cut to shape. Its just to stop shorting. If you look at a 2009-2012 MacBook Pro there's a similar layer over where the motherboard is located affixed to the bottom plate.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:00 pm 
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Guess that cutting through a pad affixed to the back would make a messy job even messier. Could have used a pair of X-Ray glasses in junior high school.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:06 pm 
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Well this thread certainly has moved along since I asked my now lost question.
Sorry I didn't’t get back earlier - lotsa stuff intervened.

Glad to see this thread now focused on resetting SMC and PRAM for a while since that’s where I am right now.

The iMac has been running fine with El Cap - though loading/opening Google seems a bit slow, the search box is slow to show up - I could begin typing into the box much faster when Google opened in Snow.

Mr H’s MBP seems slower to him and is definitely slow to start up (it’s been a month since we installed El Cap).

The biggest issue for him is twice after the MBP was asleep for about 2.5 hours, he couldn’t get the MBP to wake up - this never happened before. And the fan was whirring whilst it was sleeping!

Nothing worked to wake it up, so finally we turned it off by holding the power button for 8+ seconds. Last week this happened for the first time and we got it back up and running and figured it was just a gremlin - maybe not.

When it happened again today, we looked further at SMC reset.
Apple’s page, https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201295 , which you sent me to earlier says
Try each of these steps in this order before you reset the SMC. Test the issue after each troubleshooting step to see if the issue still occurs.
1.If your Mac isn't responding, force the Mac to shut down by pressing and holding the power button for 10 seconds. You'll lose any unsaved work in any open applications.
Did this.

5. Shut down your Mac by choosing Shut Down from the Apple menu, then turn it back on.

After doing some of the 5 steps, we moved on to phase 2:

If you're using a Mac notebook computer that's having power or battery issues, follow these steps:
1. Unplug the power adapter from your Mac and the electrical outlet for several seconds, then plug it back in.
2. Shut down your Mac. 
3. Remove and re-insert the battery, if it's removable.
4. Restart your Mac.

This worked fine and he’s up and running the MBP and we will see if it occurs again. The fan seems to be working (which is to say it's quiet) as well.

Phase 3 of the set of Apple suggestions:
If the issue still isn't resolved, you might need to reset the SMC using the steps below. 
If the battery is removable:
1. Shut down your Mac.
2. Remove the battery...
3. Press and hold the power button for five seconds.
4. Press the power button to turn on your Mac.

On another site between step 3 & 4 is the step - "put the battery back in and reconnect the MagSafe plug."

Does that seem right - is that step missing from 1-4 above???

IF/When this issue recurs, we’ll do the SMC reset itself.

I tried to digest the discussion above (for the iMac mostly, but the MBP too) on whether or not to hold the power button.
I must admit I'm confused.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:17 pm 
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MonkeyBoy wrote:
The guy who visited you probably did this, but a PRAM zap and SMC reset are usually a good idea after upgrading the OS.

He didn't stick around until the update finished - it was taking a long time for the 3 and I said I could finish it on my own.


MonkeyBoy wrote:
... command option p and r until it bongs for PRAM zap, on an iMac just shut down and unplug it for at least 15-20 seconds then plug it back in. Portables have a key combination to hit... shift control option power all at once. The portable has to be powered off first.


I don't quite follow your instructions here - seems abbreviated from what I've read below - but I can figure out where you are coming from more or less.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204063
and here
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201295

MonkeyBoy wrote:
on an iMac just shut down and unplug it for at least 15-20 seconds then plug it back in

I'm guessing timing is everything??
I do this each time we have a thunderstorm - but leave iMac unplugged (or rather leave the UPS to which it is connected unplugged) for much longer than 15 seconds. I assume that's not equivalent to an SMC reset each time???

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:23 pm 
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Yes, anything longer is equivalent to the shorter period.

I recall some people getting bitten decades ago if they held down the CUDA button too long, though it never seemed to mind how long I held it down. And I finally learned what CUDA stood for (Capacitive Unit Discharge ASIC). Only took 23 years. :badteeth:


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:00 pm 
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Mrs H wrote:
I'm guessing timing is everything??
I do this each time we have a thunderstorm - but leave iMac unplugged (or rather leave the UPS to which it is connected unplugged) for much longer than 15 seconds. I assume that's not equivalent to an SMC reset each time???


MonkeyBoy wrote:
Yes, anything longer is equivalent to the shorter period.

Duh?
So longer is not the same as an SMC reset?
Which is probably a good thing since I read somewhere that one shouldn't do too many of these (or was that PRAM reset?)

MonkeyBoy wrote:
I recall some people getting bitten decades ago if they held down the CUDA button too long, though it never seemed to mind how long I held it down. And I finally learned what CUDA stood for (Capacitive Unit Discharge ASIC). Only took 23 years. :badteeth:

Duh? again.
Does this translate to 'only hold down the power button for 5 seconds'?

While I have your attention, what about my last question for the MBP?
Mrs H wrote:
On another site between step 3 & 4 is the step - "put the battery back in and reconnect the MagSafe plug."
Does that seem right - is that step missing from 1-4 above???

Is that a missing step? Should the battery go back in and power be reconnected before starting up?

Does it seem to you like I'm dooing the right thing as far as the MBP and no waking from sleep?
I figured that I should go with the steps offered by Apple before doing it - and only do it if these steps don't solve the problem.

I'm wondering is El Cap is slow because we are pushing the MBP to its limits on brain power.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:57 am 
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If you unplug it for 15 seconds or if you unplug it for 15 hours, the end result is the same. Once you go past the necessary time, more time doesn't make it any less or more effective. The only threshold is the minimum, although if you keep the iMac unplugged for months on end there's a battery on the motherboard that can expire and it's a pain to reach. Intel Mac Laptops only use the main battery.

I don't see any particular need to go through a lengthy diagnostic before performing an SMC reset, it either solves the problem or the situation continues as before, there is no third option. I would also do a PRAM (now called NVRAM, although it's still command option P and R for PRam) reset too, that often will cure woes. Typically I do the SMC reset and upon powering on I hold down command-opt-p-r until it chimes a couple times.

I can't believe your tech left you before the upgrade finished. What if it hadn't completed successfully? There are so many things that can go wrong at that point. Thankfully what you're seeing seems to be run-of-the-mill issues from a big OS jump, which an SMC & PRAM reset typically cures. Your systems would have stopped booting if the upgrade had gone wrong. Gah!

Another thing it could be is HD fragmentation, which tends to afflict upgrades. There is a pretty easy way to get around that if you're making bootable backups... just boot off the backup, erase the internal HD, then clone it back. The new copy should be substantially less fragmented than the original, provided its not doing a block transfer (which, as the name suggests, transfers blocks of data from one disk to another, fragmentation and all). Of course non-block backups take longer. If the bootable backup boots you can make the change at that point to disable block copy mode when copying the data back to the internal.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:04 am 
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And as far as I know CCC, by default, will not do a block copy. Plus I think the only way to do a block copy with CCC is to be booted to a third disk--not the desired source or destination.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:20 am 
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Mrs H wrote:
MonkeyBoy wrote:
The guy who visited you probably did this, but a PRAM zap and SMC reset are usually a good idea after upgrading the OS.

He didn't stick around until the update finished - it was taking a long time for the 3 and I said I could finish it on my own.


MonkeyBoy wrote:
I can't believe your tech left you before the upgrade finished. What if it hadn't completed successfully? There are so many things that can go wrong at that point. Thankfully what you're seeing seems to be run-of-the-mill issues from a big OS jump, which an SMC & PRAM reset typically cures. Your systems would have stopped booting if the upgrade had gone wrong. Gah!...


No no no. I misspoke - or used the wrong term.
He stayed until the upgrade to El Cap finished installing successfully, but then left me to do all the updates of software update in the App store, which I said I could finish up on my own. The problem we are seeing with Mr H's machine staying asleep with fan whirring didn't show up until almost 3 weeks after the upgrade to El Cap.

MonkeyBoy wrote:
If you unplug it for 15 seconds or if you unplug it for 15 hours, the end result is the same. Once you go past the necessary time, more time doesn't make it any less or more effective. The only threshold is the minimum, although if you keep the iMac unplugged for months on end there's a battery on the motherboard that can expire and it's a pain to reach....

Thanks very much for the clarification on timing - I figured we'd have to get a stop watch out!
Mr H's MBP - so far so good. We'll see later today when it goes into long sleep for the afternoon - but the previous 2 events happened almost a week apart.

We leave all machines unplugged when we are away - usually no longer than 6 weeks. Haven't had trouble, yet. There is always my mac house call guy to change the battery, I guess if/when it's needed... :o

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:24 am 
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WZZZ wrote:
And as far as I know CCC, by default, will not do a block copy. Plus I think the only way to do a block copy with CCC is to be booted to a third disk--not the desired source or destination.

Hi WZZZ,
Thanks for the info.
I use SuperDuper! I'll look at the manual and see if it does block copy or not.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:02 am 
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MonkeyBoy wrote:
...

Another thing it could be is HD fragmentation, which tends to afflict upgrades. There is a pretty easy way to get around that if you're making bootable backups... just boot off the backup, erase the internal HD, then clone it back. The new copy should be substantially less fragmented than the original, provided its not doing a block transfer (which, as the name suggests, transfers blocks of data from one disk to another, fragmentation and all). Of course non-block backups take longer. If the bootable backup boots you can make the change at that point to disable block copy mode when copying the data back to the internal.


I couldn't find anything about this one way or the other in the SuperDuper! Manual.

If I keep making backups - and have made several since the upgrade to El Cap - have I continued to copy the fragmentation onto the newer backups?

I have 4 different backups of each machine which I alternate in making backups every several days when we are doing a lot of work. Bootable backups, but I don't use TimeMachine.

Sorry to keep asking questions here.

FWIW - since I did the battery removal as described above, on the way to SMC but not there yet, his machine has been just fine (except that Google is slower than it was in Snow)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:27 pm 
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SuperDuper doesn't perform block level copies. CCC (Carbon Copy Cloner) does, but with caveats.

What I was suggesting is SuperDuper the boot drive to an external, boot off the external, then SuperDuper it back, this time using the option to erase the internal before copying. Alternately you can go into Disk Utility, select Macintosh HD, and erase it there, then SuperDuper it back.

But if it's working fine now then it's working fine, no need to go through unnecessary steps.

Sorry, I thought you had a 2009+ MacBook Pro though, which have internal batteries. They can be removed and/or disconnected but its more complicated.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:40 pm 
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MonkeyBoy wrote:
...
But if it's working fine now then it's working fine, no need to go through unnecessary steps.

Sorry, I thought you had a 2009+ MacBook Pro though, which have internal batteries. They can be removed and/or disconnected but its more complicated.

Yes it seems to be fine, knock wood (though slow-ish on Google as I've said - Mr H keeps sighing)
His MBP is mid? 2007 (I'm pretty sure) but there's no reason for you to apologize, you can't be expected to remember all our stuff!
And the newtous MBP from macofalltrades is a Late 2011.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:34 pm 
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Aha, the 2011 was the one I was remembering.


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