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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 5:15 am 
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Audio Return to Channel, please...
Audio Return to Channel, NOW! :upset:
Goes and disables ARC from the Samsung TV, since Onkyo home theatre receiver receives volume up/down and power on/off commands, but not sound. In goes the SPDIF cable. Is there a specific way to chant 'Audio Return to Channel' correctly? :confused:

Edit: Might have been this 'Many TVs are two-channel (2.0) only via ARC':

https://www.cnet.com/news/what-is-audio ... annel-arc/

Needed this since the TV works just fine as a Netflix player, most of the time this TV serves as a mere computer monitor.

Why do people design useless crap and get other people to pay for it, I want to master this skill too!

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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 10:10 am 
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Sorry, not clear, where is the Source of the Sound coming from?


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 11:27 pm 
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Are You my Onkyo? :fishsmack:

The Audio return channel should be used to get sound back using the HDMI cable. As You know usually the signal (sound and video) comes from a source (computer in this case), goes through the home theatre receiver and then to the display (TV here). I can however save a considerable amount of energy by switching off the computer and using the TV built-in Netflix application instead of the Netflix application in my computer as a signal source. In this case the signal (sound) should then go to reverse direction, from TV to receiver, with the help of this ARC feature. If only. :bonk:

(Edited [proofread] version)

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Last edited by miero on Sun May 28, 2017 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 4:34 am 
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What model TV do you have and what model AVR do you have?

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 5:14 am 
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Hi Squishy Tia,

TV is Samsung UA48JU6400, receiver is Onkyo TX-NR636. I have not found manual for the TV in English, but the HDMI input with ARC output is clearly marked in the TV case.

The Onkyo was originally in my home theatre setup, but after it was recently repaired under warranty, I decided to move it to my computer setup.

Edit: 1) I meant a real manual with details. 2) Also, the ARC worked once, or I'm losing my mind totally. Not sure which one... :coffee: 3) The HMDI cable was sold as version 2.0, is 3 meters long (about 10 feet for NASA) and works fine with 4K resolution.

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 8:24 am 
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Feet put you closer to where you want to be on Mars than meters. :P


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:26 am 
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Here is the TV's user manual in English.

Your receiver manual is here.

On the AVR manual, you want to see page 8, "2nd Step", Item #5.

You may need to turn on Anynet+ in order to enable ARC. Samsung's manual is amazingly vague with nearly everything, but usually Anynet+ is in the System settings. Obviously you'll need to use HDMI OUT 1 (Main) in your AVR. You might need to set the Speaker setting to Receiver in order to get ARC fully functioning as well, though I wouldn't see why unless Samsung screwed things up (a possibility).

If ARC requires HDMI-CEC to be enabled on either device, it must be enabled on both devices. I won't lecture you on HDMI-CEC's many woes, I'll just hope Samsung likes the Onkyo enough to not suck ass with it on.

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:54 am 
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Hi Squishy Tia, thank You for Your help on this.

I believe those settings are what I have been trying to do. When on in both devices, the receiver appears in the Samsung 'Speaker list' menu and is automatically selected/active, the TV remote does control the receiver, but there is no sound at all. I have now switched this feature off from the TV and have selected to use the optic cable with this HDMI connection instead, as otherwise the TV would try to use the seemingly mute ARC. I have not played around with these home theatre things during the past 6 years and might make some silly mistake(s), but can't find out what.

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 10:57 pm 
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miero wrote:
Hi Squishy Tia, thank You for Your help on this.

I believe those settings are what I have been trying to do. When on in both devices, the receiver appears in the Samsung 'Speaker list' menu and is automatically selected/active, the TV remote does control the receiver, but there is no sound at all. I have now switched this feature off from the TV and have selected to use the optic cable with this HDMI connection instead, as otherwise the TV would try to use the seemingly mute ARC. I have not played around with these home theatre things during the past 6 years and might make some silly mistake(s), but can't find out what.


Try setting your TV's Speaker setting to Receiver. It may force audio through ARC. Audio WILL NOT pass through ARC at all if the S/PDIF (digital optical) connection is activated. It must be deactivated first before ARC will pass audio.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:51 am 
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Update: Had some problems with the video, that seemed to cured by touching the HDMI cable end that goes to the graphics card. Bought a new HDMI cable that mentioned being able to transmit ARC. About 3 months later had the time to try it, and yes, with the new cable the Audio Return Channel works. Did not know that there are HDMI 2.0 cables, that do not carry that data. Actually it seems there were no standards back then, as we need at least 18Gbps for 4k@60Hz.

Forgot to check the HDMI cable setting after getting the new cable, and actually used this setup 2 months so that the sound went through the optical cable, and the image directly from GPU to TV, forgot to add the receiver between. Was too busy... I thought the once already repaired receiver was kaput again, but the blinkenlights (receiver as a HDMI switch light did not naturally turn on) were telling the situation to me, just did not have time to think about that issue. Felt kind of silly, when I noticed the receiver was not connected to the picture at all. :fishsmack:

Ok, then I ended up buying a new Sony 55" tv for computer display last week, and started to get more problems with the picture, the black flickering related to the copy protection scam. Ok it seemed clear, that the single video card HDMI connector was dying, as touching it made the blinking worse. Ordered a display port to HDMI adapter, which I got today (passive, seems to work in 4k@60Hz). Same issue with it. Decided to stop doing the main job for a moment, and lifted the receiver out to see the backside. At least I did it after updating the GPU and receiver BIOSes. And 'violin', I had left the HDMI in cable to 'Bluray' port, which did not support the copy protection scam version 2.2. The output HDMI cable was in a supported port, but this input port I missed to switch back, while trying to get the original ARC issue fixed. So it seems that the first HDMI cable wasn't defective at all, but there might have been a tv BIOS update during that time, that forced a new copy protection, which then broke the picture. At least it got me to buy a cable supporting the ARC. And the new Sony tv was a lot more prone to this blinking.

Crazy thing was that all games worked fine, as did films played in 4k@60Hz. Mainly the normal desktop/browser/LibreOffice situation blinked, with variable intensity. It turned out to depend on the complexity of the image displayed. I have one more detailed Ubuntu background image, that starts to blink almost immediately. Other less detailed backgrounds work fine most of the time, as did opening a large text window blocking the background image. Thank You for this copy protection system, that protects background images, dear Overlords that own everything!

Now both of the related HDMI cables are inserted to correct places, and everything works fine. The lesson? Eyeglasses might not be a scam, and it is nice to be able to invest some time for working out these first world problems. :welcome: I already contacted the company which sold my GPU with 3 years warranty. But as the card is Nvidia GTX 1070, there was no point sending it back for replacement in current GPU situation. Yet luckily this was a case of yet another stupid customer. :bonk:


Edit:

Also one funny feature of this copy protection was, that it could cause a logout in Ubuntu, or even a crash. Did not have the time to look at the logs, but others have noted this, when unplugging a video cable. Seems You should first lock the display, before unplugging the HDMI cable, or You get the forced logout and so on. Wonderful feature for a computer kernel/whatever. Could this also have been the reason for my disk corruption problem? Several kernel updates have happened since then, but the original SDD Samsung 840 seems to work fine in another computer. Might be too soon to be sure, but I think I can smell the fish!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:22 am 
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I suspect with the rate of tech development increasing, the non-standard standards might be the standard to standardly keep an eye on. :idea:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:00 am 
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Hold the press. Or screen. My grand unifying theory just collapsed. After two days of flicker free computing, I visited in Windows to check the Subnautica release version, and when I got back to Ubuntu, all hell was loose and lost and... Seems the nvidia driver that installs from the Ubuntu Additional driver tab is still crappy, or something. Apt-removed nvidia* stuff and installed the same driver number version from terminal. After reboot the flicker is gone. Which comes first, decent Linux desktop for grandmoms or men in Mars?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:15 pm 
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Still no solution to this issue. All open source versions seem to flicker like crazy, but did not have time to really clean nvidia stuff before trying each of them. Nvidia-384, 387 and 390 flicker to black image and back while in background image like at least every 3 second (probably the criminal copy protection scam), proprietary version 384 works fine most of the time, but it also occasionally flickers. I also got flickering in 4K 30Hz with the proprietary diver, silly thing. No problems at all, while watching movies, tv programs or gaming in Linux. No problems at all with Windows 10. This is also a very intermittent problem, like for example now I'm trying to study it, but it is does not happen at all.

I have tried these new other possible colour depth etc settings in Linux, but without rebooting. Still wondering if this would be some kind of bad cable, but there are no flickering in Windows. Quite hard to test direct cables etc, when this setup appens to work at this moment as it is. At least I have found this is not related to video card nor CPU overclocking. Here's my video card on the left side, and the tv HDMI cable trying to get a 4K60hZ connection: :whip:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:02 pm 
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miero wrote:
Still no solution to this issue. All open source versions seem to flicker like crazy, but did not have time to really clean nvidia stuff before trying each of them. Nvidia-384, 387 and 390 flicker to black image and back while in background image like at least every 3 second (probably the criminal copy protection scam), proprietary version 384 works fine most of the time, but it also occasionally flickers. I also got flickering in 4K 30Hz with the proprietary diver, silly thing. No problems at all, while watching movies, tv programs or gaming in Linux. No problems at all with Windows 10. This is also a very intermittent problem, like for example now I'm trying to study it, but it is does not happen at all.

I have tried these new other possible colour depth etc settings in Linux, but without rebooting. Still wondering if this would be some kind of bad cable, but there are no flickering in Windows. Quite hard to test direct cables etc, when this setup appens to work at this moment as it is. At least I have found this is not related to video card nor CPU overclocking. Here's my video card on the left side, and the tv HDMI cable trying to get a 4K60hZ connection: :whip:


What brand is your HDMI cable, and what length is it? And is it certified for at least 18 Gbit/sec? That's the minimum needed for proper HDMI 2.0 functionality and 4k60. Normally I'd say disable HDMI CEC (HDMI Control), but sadly ARC (and soon eARC) require it to be active in order for that function to work.

I've got bad news for you. Your AVR was too new to handle proper 4:4:4 4k60, and likely didn't handle 4k30 4:4:4 very well. From the product sheet:

Quote:
Supports 4K/60 Hz transmission of YCbCr 4:2:0 as defined by HDMI 2.0 specification


The only way to get the nVidia drivers to properly work with that receiver is to enable its passthrough mode, which sadly is usually done by selecting the input you want to use as the source and turning the AVR off. Obviously this kills audio and is not desireable. 4k60 4:2:0 is the format used for 4k blu-ray/streaming. You need a newer receiver for 4k30/4k60 4:4:4 operation, as that receiver came out before HDMI 2.0a/2.0b.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:31 am 
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Wow, what wealth of knowledge! :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:38 am 
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Hi ST,

thanks for Your time, yes that is the thing I'm worrying, I just have not had the time to check what kind of signal the Win 10 defaults to, as I have not had this flickering with it. I recall direct cable from video card to TV did not suffer from this blinking issue. I was going to test it again past weekend, but of course there were no flickering during that period, when I would have had time to test it.

Do You happen to know what should the values be in Nvidia X Server Settings app GPU setting pane 'Controls' It lists:

'Color space' (RGB/YCbCr420) Edit: Ok this says Chroma subsampling is currently 4:2:0
'Color range' (Full/Limited)
'Dithering Controls' (Auto/Enabled/Disabled)
'Mode' (Auto/Dynamic2x2/Static2x2/Temporal)
'Depth' (Auto/6pbc/8bps)

I have no idea how to find 4:4:4 data from Windows, does it default to 4:2:2 ?

Never mind, I have too much work to do now. I will get back to this issue later, when I have time to do some reading.

Edit2: This Bravia KD-X8000E Android 'manual' seems to be pure crap / There is a HDMI option to use 4:4:4 etc or not, 'standard /enhanced HDMI'


Edit3: Today even the nvidia-390 version works just fine without flickering. There must be a AV oriented ghost around here?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:57 am 
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Lol there seems to be an easy way to check the if the current chroma is 4:4:4 or something else by just looking a picture in a web page:

http://www.geeks3d.com/20141203/how-to-quickly-check-the-chroma-subsampling-used-with-your-4k-uhd-tv/

I get 4:4:4 in 4k@30Hz and 4:2:0 in 4k@60H. The Nvidia X server panel confirms these figures. Seems this hardware negotiates the correct settings. Or does it? :classic-eek: Maybe it is the ghost after all? :emphatic-eek: This is Thailand...

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:05 am 
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When using the computer's GPU, defaults are 4:4:4. You have to specifically choose a 4:2:0 mode, but that makes text ungodly hard to read as it blurs the living fuck out of it. 4:2:0 is fine for blu-rays, but horrible for a Mac/PC display. Your TV and computer can both handle 4:4:4, though the TV requires a specific setting to handle 4k50/60 @ 4:4:4:

Quote:
The HDMI connection with HDMI UHD Color set to Off supports up to UHD 50P/60P 4:2:0 input signals, while the HDMI connection with HDMI UHD Color set to On supports up to UHD 50P/60P 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 input signals. For more information, refer to "Supported Resolutions for each of UHD Input Signals".


Sadly, your TV appears not to have that specific setting capability, as further referenced in the manual:

Quote:
" For the 7 series or higher models except for 7200 series model, each HDMI connection can be individually optimised for HDMI UHD Color. When you connect the TV to the external device that supports only UHD 24 or 30 Hz frequency or any FHD frequency, the HDMI UHD Color function may not be available. In this case, set HDMI UHD Color to Off.

" For the 6 series models or lower and 7200 series model, make sure to connect to the HDMI IN (STB/ DVI) port of the TV. Although the HDMI cable is connected to this port, the HDMI UHD Color function is not available on the 6000 series models.


Seems Samsung really cheaped out on the 6000 series, leaving you with no good options for full chroma PC signals. This is why you're having such a nightmare with the TV and GPU. It'll work in 4:2:0 mode, but not 4:4:4 because the 6000 series and the 7200 model lack the UHD Color setting even on the primary HDMI port. This is one time where being a Costco shopper hurts (your TV model appears to be what Costco would have been selling).

Also, I don't recall you mentioning which GPU you have. Unless you have a 900 or later series GPU, it is only capable of 4:2:0 at 4k60. Only Maxwell or later can do 4k60 @ 4:4:4.

This is why I hate HDMI so fucking much. It's fragmented as hell, meaning unless you wait to get new equipment when the HDMI standard itself finally gets changed and manufactured into new gear, you have a mishmash of HDMI standards that just don't play nice with each other.

I think it's safe to say that you're essentially boned for using the TV as a 4k PC display. Unless you have a Maxwell GPU or later, you're looking at having to replace all of your gear to get 4k60 @ 4:4:4. And right now GPU prices are 2-3x MSRP due to cryptominers buying them all out. The lowly GTX 1070 is going for nearly $1k, almost 600 more than MSRP and $700 more than the old street price. 1080Ti? Fuck that shit - it's $1400 minimum price right now (its MSRP is $700 US).

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:21 am 
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Hi,

the tv is 8000 series, but in red font :badteeth:

My GPU is Palit GTX 1070.

Edit:

http://www.sony.co.th/en/electronics/televisions/x8000e-series

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:34 am 
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Also noticed someone has plugged the receiver to the same UPS that keeps the computer on. Wonder what could happen during brownouts, if the battery is not up to the task? Damn ghosts anyway :twisted:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:03 pm 
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Wonder if Onkyo TX-NR474 would be a good choice?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:34 pm 
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No problems today with the blinking, but now I connected the GPU directly to the TV, and the display started to blink like stars in the sky. Nvidia X server shows 4:4:4 4K@60Hz, but there is a huge blinking problem with the screen. Wonder if I need still a better cable. This feels like my over the Ethernet 5m cable can't carry any larger signal? Do I need a 18 GB cable? I am also using the latest public GPU driver version, that didn't not work well before. One useful side of insomnia is, that one has time to kill. At least now I know the blinking is not related to the receiver.

Edit: I changed back to the proprietary Nvidia drivers (384.111), and the blinking disappeared. I have at the moment 4:4:4 4K@60Hz using the direct cable from GPU to tv without problems. Any suggestions what is going on? There is no LSD available, as drugs are illegal here, how else do I get any sense to this?

By the way I can't see any difference in the display between 4:4:4 and 4:2:0 mode in 4K? I am 53 years old, and would need eyeglasses, though.

Edit: Does not make any sense, I change drivers, and they work like days, and sometime the blink constantly after changing the drivers. Actually with the direct GPU to tv I tend to lose the connection all together more often. 4 AM, hitting the bed soon.

Edit: This almost looks like something gets corrupted in Linux.I have no glue left, and hence can't scream, Going to Youtube muzak :snail:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:00 pm 
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Movies won't show any diff between 4:4:4 and 4:2:0, but text and sharp game images will. Text is almost unreadable in any color other than black, white, and oddly neon green. Any color utilizing the blue/red subpixels is distorted due to chroma subsampling.

If your TV has the ability to change the name of the source via a menu, you may wish to change the particular input's name to "PC" or the closest variant of that name (but not Game). In many TVs this is required to deactivate any processing of the picture and allow true 4:4:4 signals to be pass through to the display panel. Samsung's TVs for instance, require setting HDMI 1 to "PC", which disables chroma subsampling so text is clear. However, for non-native or non-VESA 16:9 resolutions, Samsung's TVs will revert to their previously chosen picture modes (movie, standard, etc, except for Game Mode which is its own separate mode), and return to PC mode upon entering a valid 16:9 PC/VESA resolution.

Your TV is definitely new enough to handle the input, but there does seem to be something going on with the cable if you can sometimes get a connection and sometimes not. You noted your cable is 5m in length (just under 16.5 US feet). That exceeds the recommended non-powered length for an HDMI cable run. This is especially true if your cable is cheap and uses 28 or 30 AWG wiring. If possible, get a cable that is no longer than 3m, preferrably 2m. And yes, at 4k60@4:4:4, you need a cable that is certified to at least 18 Gbit/sec.

You mentioned ethernet over cable...while HDMI does have ethernet capability, it is not utilized by any consumer gear I know of and although there is an actual ethernet cable standard for carrying HDMI signal timings, no GPU or AVR uses such a connection. Typically that is only seen on a media server.

As for the AVR being on the UPS, get it off of there. It's a continuous high power draw piece of equipment and should never be placed on a UPS. Line conditioner, maybe, if its total power consumption is lower than 700w RMS. Otherwise, plugging it into your standard surge protector is best. You may need to utilize a "high power" socket on certain surge protectors such as Monster's line, as those sockets are not filtered, but merely surge/ground protected to ensure that no limiting of power is occuring.

WARNING: Do not purchase any cable advertising itself as HDMI 2.1 certified. Even though the spec was finalized in November 2017, manufacturers have not had proper time to test and certify their products for the finalized spec. Use HDMI 2.0a/b certified cables only. Avoid cables that do not specify certification for HDMI 2.0a at least, as that spec version is the one proper HDR and 4k60:4:4:4 was introduced with.

Do not use "Redmere" HDMI cables with a GPU connection or any connection utilizing ARC

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Sometimes during brownout the power differential will cause current flow between the two devices, one in a brownout state, the other in a powered state. I've seen many a network port fried by someone who rewired his office but didn't know the difference between the two sets of ports on his UPS (surge protection vs. surge protection w/battery backup).


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:40 am 
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I might be able to fit a 3 m cable running along in the middle of the wall, not sure though. This Sony tv has all the connections in the left side, which is the wrong side for me. It is impossible to find these kind of cables (18 Gbit/sec stated) locally. I did try several shorter HDMI cables with the previous Samsung tv, and none of those worked any better. Any suggestions for a decent 3m/5m HDMI 18 Gbit/sec cable in ebay/Amazon?

Wondering if I should try to separate the HDMI cable from the cable duct that contains also power line and speaker cables. I recall getting radio wave interference in this kind of situation to a 10 m long HDMI cable some 10 years ago. Had to buy a really expensive 10m cable to get flicker free image to projector. Every time a near by fridge compressor started working, there was a blink in the image, even when projector and receiver were running from an unplugged UPS :bonk:

Edit: Looks like the blinking starts, when I set the receiver to 'Direct' state. This I can repeat and verify constantly in ten seconds. Any other state, where the receiver handles the signal works ok. Dunno how I have managed to miss this. 2 am here, I'll read the manual tomorrow. :bonk:

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