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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:34 am 
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I haven't installed it (NOT brave!) but supposedly stacks have finally arrived. Real stacks, in the Finder, not lame Dock stacks. We've been talking about stacks since, oh, the bbs.xlr8yourmac.com days if not earlier. Do they work in practice? Dunno yet.

Also, OMG OMG OMG NEW EMOJIS!!!1!

Anyway, curious about firsthand impressions...

- Anonymous


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Yeeeeeeah, as a hackie owner, not gonna touch that with a fifty mile pole until Carbon Copy Cloner can verifiably clone and restore a system using that OS. And I'm in no hurry either now that I know for a fact that DVD Player will live on in 64-bit mode, continuing my ability to use my hackie as a HTPC.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:17 pm 
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I wonder how long after 10.14 ships will it take for all of Creative Cloud to be 64-bit? They were still using Java in some parts of CC long after Apple removed Java.

I guess everyone with a system before 2012 needs to run out and buy a new non-upgradeable non-expandable system. That or just put Windows 10 on their system. The oldest system I've got running 10 has a Core Duo inside. Works surprising fine once I put an SSD in it. A 1.8" SSD but it's still an SSD.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:39 am 
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I find my current mode of operation is to stay at least one full version behind whatever is the current Mac OSX. I test the waters slowly when moving 'forward' and always keep a separate boot-able version of the familiar working OS for daily use.

It has been a long time since I felt excitement related to the release of a new Mac OS. That excitement has been replaced by a sense of impending problems/annoyances with each new release. What will the next release break? What usable, functional feature will become extinct?

The last time I really felt excited about the computer as hobby was my first Hackintosh build (MSI wind laptop). Before that, it was probably when the OS was licensed to the PC manufactures. Wow, I remember how those Power Computing PC's were so powerful relative to those offered by Apple. That was a fun time. Before that I was all in on the Atari platform and owned many Atari's. I got sucked in originally by the built in midi ports and the great price point. Having an Atari with C-Lab Notator connected to my Korg M1 and Roland digital grand was great fun. That seems like a distant memory now.

I recognize that I may be describing my personal age related change as much as a change in the computing environment... but I digress!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:02 am 
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I've managed to bring yet another thread to a screeching halt! Don't really mean to do that.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:47 am 
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No you didn't!

I know the feeling of "ugh...what's it gonna break this time" but I also want to keep an open mind about certain changes. Aside from the sense of impending doom over whether or not my old version of Creative Suite will finally die, a lot of my cynicism comes from changes that just don't make sense and simply don't improve anything, like the way disk utility was ruined a couple versions back. The fact that Apple often seems to focus on adding unwanted features that don't work right is just icing, but that doesn't always happen.

OS X 10.6 was, so far, the pinnacle of the OS X's history. Apple took a deep breath, refined things, and by-and-large produced a stable, pleasant, thoughtful system that was an improvement over 10.5 and earlier.

So I'm going to try to keep an open mind. I may end up moving Creative Suite on to my Mac Pro, since it will forever be stuck in the past, and keep semi-up-to-date on my MacBook Pro.

And despite all the frustrations that usually come with a new OS, I have no illusions that the grass is greener on the other side. I use Linux a fair amount at work, and the worst day using OS X's graphical interface is 1/100 as aggravating as the pervasive inconsistency and breakage in various flavors of Ubuntu. If you only see the command line, Linux is better, but that's a different animal.

- Anonymous


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:15 pm 
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Actually if its a 2010 or newer Mac Pro you could run 10.14 on it... if you replace the video card. And since the motherboard didn't change from 2009 to 2012, you could flash a 2009 motherboard and replace the CPUs to turn one into a 2010-2012.

10.14's 64-bit transition is likely a precursor to a move to ARM, because unlike Intel there's a big performance boost from running solely in 64-bit mode on ARM. I'm extremely skeptical that a move to such massively cheaper components will be met with a corresponding price cut.

I'm not saying things are all perfect and wonderful on the Microsoft and Linux side of the fence but they do maintain support for old hardware for at least a decade longer than Apple, and in some ways it actually runs better than the OS the hardware originally came with. The last time that happened with Apple was when they were in the middle of the PowerPC transition where every OS release came with more PPC code so everything got faster, not slower. How many years ago was that?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:25 pm 
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I've got a 2008 Mac Pro.

- Anonymous


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:49 pm 
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I've got you beat, I've got a good dozen 2006s in a closet at work. And, as an added bonus, I keep having to explain, usually to the same people, that just because they have dual processors doesn't mean they're actually equivalent (much less better) to the 2010 and newer Mac Pros.

It's like they see a stack of Mac Pro towers and that means they're all exactly the same, the internals don't matter.

I think they're going to get donated or recycled or something just to stop the insanity.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:43 pm 
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At work we got rid of a reasonable sized stack of 2006-era Intel XServes because, limited to OS X 10.6, they just weren't useful anymore. We're still running a couple 2009 XServes in light duty private network applications, but they're not to be long of this world.

It's the march of progress, I guess. Of course our new Dell 1U servers are something like 4X as fast in single-threaded CPU bound operations, and they have 6 front-facing live plug drive bays connected to a high performance RAID 6 capable hardware array.

- Anonymous


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:26 am 
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I'll admit I am curious to look at 10.14 to see if they truly ripped all 32-bit compatibility out of the OS. Are 32-bit CLI-only tools going to fail? Or is it more of a blend that requires GUI applications to call on 64-bit only libraries and frameworks? Because if they did destroy all 32-bit compatibility, I doubt the education/science sector is in a rush to run out a rewrite fully functional software. They're far more likely to just throw in the towel on Apple, because if they have to commit to a major rewrite, they may as well rewrite it on a platform that will be around for longer than 3 years.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:26 pm 
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I think they're ripping it out in OS X 10.15.

If we can't keep using 32-bit libraries at work we'll probably need to stop developing on OS X. There are a couple older versions of libraries for which we haven't any source code that cannot reasonably be replaced with newer versions or different packages. We're developing one large system with different tools that will eventually replace most of that older stuff, and even that will still take years. In the meantime we need to continue adding features and maintaining the old system. There are other things that work perfectly right now that could take multiple man-years to rewrite and make work properly in a different environment. Obviously, we'd rather do as little of that as is necessary, and at a minimum on our own terms.

- Anonymous


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:49 am 
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Oh, so they did. Odd, since the 32-bit warnings were implemented in the latest version of High Sierra, which led to speculation this was done because Mojave was going to be 64-bit only. Apparently someone told them that one release a couple months before the next OS is released isn't enough warning. On the other hand, discussions of those warnings is why I never bothered to update my HS partition (the most use it sees is when I update it).

Man it hurts me to read discussions on sites talking about Mojave and 64-bit. So many fanboys rushing to "duh it should be 64-bit only already" but not a single one of them stopping to ask why.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:05 pm 
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It's easy to get wrapped up in one's own little world and not even realize there are other ways to use the computer, let alone understand why people use things. And on the Mac, unlike an iPhone, it's not just about things you buy from the App Store for $1.99.

- Anonymous


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:45 am 
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Gents && Tia:

I saw MB's post on BdAq's thread mentioning the need for third party GPU to get 10.14 running on the MacPro 5,1 . . . I have a "2012" model with the 8 core cpu and several HDDs with a range of OSX from 10.9 to 10.13 right now, mixed in with a smattering of linux OSs of some ubuntu and some OpenSUSE. I also don't have a jones for the "latest and greatest" from pa apple, but since they now have a limited time frame to download the installer it kind of steps it up . . . and then there is the whole "longevity" issue when browsers and such drop support for older versions . . . .

But, question on recommends for video cards that would work, and question is whether it is now already "behind the curve" as far as finding reasonable prices on Metal friendly GPUs??? There was an online thread where the posters were saying that the two "recommended" cards from apple "don't support EFI"?? which would possibly be "problematic"?? Another Apple Discussion group thread showed a Radeon Sapphire 7950 as "working" . . . haven't looked at prices, and don't know if that one has EFI issues? Has this "which GPU actually works" issue been figured out?

eep

PS: I'm willing to state that 10.9 was probably the "last of the good updates" . . . DU does what is needed, etc . . .


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:00 pm 
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I don't know of any list of Metal compatible GPUs. I know if you run 10.13 you can check about this mac and see if it shows Metal: Yes or Metal: No but oddly enough on the Mac Pros I administer they all can't run High Sierra because, surprise surprise, they have to run software that isn't compatible with High Sierra. Way to go, Apple.

As far as EFI cards go, think of them as Mac-specific cards. Cards with a Mac BIOS flashed onto them. This means they only work in a Mac and won't work in a PC. Since Apple hasn't sold a system that could use a PCIe card since 2013, I honestly don't think there are any Mac-specific cards around except for really old ones from circa 2012 or earlier.

Basically a Mac-specific card will show you the Apple logo at boot, and allow you to hold down startup commands like option or command r or command s and see the screen. PC cards will work provided you have driver support but they will only light up the video card when the video card driver loads, which is shortly before the login screen appears. Depending on the speed of the boot drive this can be a nail-bitingly long time, but most of the time it shows up and all is well.

I imagine if you use a card that has driver support from Apple there will be a lot less nail biting because things like security updates or OS point updates won't knock out your video drivers, which will mean it stays dark... forever. Or until you put in a card that has driver support from Apple. I actually left the OEM cards in my stable of Mac Pros but don't use them in favor of some Nvidia cards which are so much faster than the OEM card its not even funny. Until an OS update comes out that knocks out the driver, then I flip over and update the driver then flip back.

Not a bad system, although I have some very technologically challenged students who think they know PCs (they don't know PCs) who will damage systems and monitors instead of getting their butt out of the chair and asking their teacher for help. And of course nobody knows which student was sitting there when the equipment got damaged. :bonk:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:51 pm 
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@MB:

Thanks for the details . . . I've got the OEM radeon in there now, it's fine, I'll have to look over what shows up in 10.13 about Metal, but I'm away from that machine for a few hours. But in my olde '00 iMac and my '09 MBPro the OEM is Nvidia, and indeed that seems to be "crisper" in the rendition . . . likely the cost is higher for Nvidia, and we know apple cuts it close on the price of hardware vis the sales price, hence the need for using less expensive parts. :upset: :bonk:

I guess this stuff will become more obvious as people bit down on the upgrade . . . isn't it possible to have several cards installed?? . . . and would that for example OEM card, provide the "apple friendly" logo for the pre-10.14 OSs . . . and then whatever card would be Metal friendly that would allow the 10.14 system to boot up? Or, the Metal card would "run the table" on all of the apple features?

Having the apple bootloader window would be fairly important for my multi-multi-boot efforts . . . it would require some actual thought to get GRUB to hook up to the older OSX versions . . . I can't seem to shake this need to have a whole bunch of OSs . . . I need constant "change" . . . but it has to be "cheap change" . . . don't have time to order a bunch of video cards and then find out the whole system has gone permanently . . . dark . . . oh, wow . . . oops . . . .

eep


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:54 pm 
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Again, I don't know what cards Apple deigns to support Metal on, but if you want video at startup you need an EFI card. I guess you could always try and figure out whats the oldest cheapest EFI card that supports Metal and just tuck one of them in. You could even run dual displays and depend on that for startup duties then shut it off in the OS, or at least make it your secondary display.

Personally I look at Metal as Apple revisiting the days before OpenGL and the rest. Proprietary APIs led to a very dark period for Apple. Hell, I don't know how anyone's going to make a cross platform application under 10.14 & up without completely abstracting 2D and 3D to a platform-specific module.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:31 am 
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MonkeyBoy wrote:
I don't know of any list of Metal compatible GPUs. I know if you run 10.13 you can check about this mac and see if it shows Metal: Yes or Metal: No but oddly enough on the Mac Pros I administer they all can't run High Sierra because, surprise surprise, they have to run software that isn't compatible with High Sierra. Way to go, Apple.


@MB:

Thanks for the thoughts . . . "EFI card" . . . OK . . . Old . . . cheap . . . OK . . . . :classic-eek:

I'm back in 10.13 at the moment and I rifled through the about this Mac data . . . and didn't seem to find anything showing "Metal: yes" or "no" . . . I searched spotlight "Metal" . . . showed me stuff on "Metallica" . . . I guess that is some well known band or something that my computer seems to like . . . then "metal gpu" . . . and that showed me something online.

Where would I be looking for this data, or, is the fact that it isn't showing anything . . . the "answer" . . . no metal capacity? This is "mid-2012" . . . ATI Radeon HD 5770 1024 MB . . . . does MB in this case mean "Metal Body"??? :coffee:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:10 am 
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Metal compatible GPUs:

AMD

Radeon 7950 Mac Edition
Radeon R2xx series or later

nVidia

GTX 7xx or later (excluding 750 Ti, which is a Maxwell part, see notes below).

Note 1: GTX 600 series are in fact Metal compatible, but not necessarily supported by some developers despite being Kepler, only slower than the 700 series).

Note 2: GTX 750 Ti, and any GTX 9xx or later nVidia GPUs require the web drivers before they will function as anything other than a fixed resolution non-accelerated 2D raster device. As of 10.12.4, all Kepler GPUs have at least basic support in Apple's built in drivers, though the GK110B versions of the GTX 780/780 Ti have power management issues when not using the web drivers. For safe operation of those GPUs the web drivers are recommended.

Flashing services can be provided by MacVidCards. Make sure to choose GPUs with no more than two six pin PCIe power connectors. Despite macvidcard's (Rominator's) claim otherwise, I wouldn't trust any GPU using an 8-pin power connector unless it's a single 8-pin connector that is powered using a 2x 6-pin to 8-pin PCIe adapter. At full load those GPUs that draw more than what two six pin connectors provide can cause the machine to shut down. Alternatively, if you have a long enough molex to 6-pin PCIe adapter, you can route that to the GPU's 6-pin connector and use the aforementioned dual 6-pin to 8-pin adapter for the GPU's 8-pin connector. If you have a system that uses SATA power cables for the optical drives, you can use an SATA to PCIe adapter for one of the six pin connectors.

One of the power issues is detailed here.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:11 am 
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Squishy Tia wrote:
Metal compatible GPUs:

AMD

Radeon 7950 Mac Edition
Radeon R2xx series or later

nVidia

GTX 7xx or later (excluding 750 Ti, which is a Maxwell part, see notes below).

Note 1: GTX 600 series are in fact Metal compatible, but not necessarily supported by some developers despite being Kepler, only slower than the 700 series).

Note 2: GTX 750 Ti, and any GTX 9xx or later nVidia GPUs require the web drivers before they will function as anything other than a fixed resolution non-accelerated 2D raster device. As of 10.12.4, all Kepler GPUs have at least basic support in Apple's built in drivers, though the GK110B versions of the GTX 780/780 Ti have power management issues when not using the web drivers. For safe operation of those GPUs the web drivers are recommended.

Flashing services can be provided by MacVidCards. Make sure to choose GPUs with no more than two six pin PCIe power connectors. Despite macvidcard's (Rominator's) claim otherwise, I wouldn't trust any GPU using an 8-pin power connector unless it's a single 8-pin connector that is powered using a 2x 6-pin to 8-pin PCIe adapter. At full load those GPUs that draw more than what two six pin connectors provide can cause the machine to shut down. Alternatively, if you have a long enough molex to 6-pin PCIe adapter, you can route that to the GPU's 6-pin connector and use the aforementioned dual 6-pin to 8-pin adapter for the GPU's 8-pin connector. If you have a system that uses SATA power cables for the optical drives, you can use an SATA to PCIe adapter for one of the six pin connectors.

One of the power issues is detailed here.


@ST:

Thanks for that information . . . I did see a thread on a forum discussing this "6 pin" or "8 pin" issue . . . still a bit beyond my level, as I have yet to play around with any video card, physically . . . . Over the years in PPC linux we had to do a lot of stuff to get video cards working, but, haven't popped the door and looked at the connectors . . . nor added any video cards . . . . Whole new learning curve . . . the caveat seemed to be that the cards that Apple "approves" have so far not been flashed for Mac . . . . I'll have to read through this information several times, etc.

eep


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:31 am 
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este.el.paz wrote:
I'm back in 10.13 at the moment and I rifled through the about this Mac data
First you have to hit More Info to pull up the full System Information report, then you go under Display Adapters or whatever they're calling video cards now and it'll list the specifications of your card. It's possible that if your card isn't Metal compatible it'll just skip Metal: No and flat-out not show you anything about Metal. Apple is anything but consistent.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:56 am 
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MonkeyBoy wrote:
First you have to hit More Info to pull up the full System Information report, then you go under Display Adapters or whatever they're calling video cards now and it'll list the specifications of your card. It's possible that if your card isn't Metal compatible it'll just skip Metal: No and flat-out not show you anything about Metal. Apple is anything but consistent.


@MB:

Did much of that . . . it probably shows "video card" . . . looked through the "obvious" choices . . . they likely went with the "nothing mentioned about Metal" option . . . .

I'll try again at some point . . . no screaming rush . . . I definitely don't want to pull the trigger on "some card" . . . to then find out, nothing else but Mojave works anymore . . . .

eep


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:32 pm 
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A GTX 1050 works in 10.12 with NVidia's drivers and doesn't require 6 or 8 pin PCIe power. Only downside is it's a PC card so no video until the OS has loaded. I suppose you could always see if macvidcards could flash one for you.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:39 pm 
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MonkeyBoy wrote:
A GTX 1050 works in 10.12 with NVidia's drivers and doesn't require 6 or 8 pin PCIe power. Only downside is it's a PC card so no video until the OS has loaded. I suppose you could always see if macvidcards could flash one for you.


@MB && ST:

So I did look over the macvidcard site . . . and they list cards that they say are "Metal/Mojave" ready . . . prices are somewhat staggering . . . the "2GB" cards would be my $$ "speed" . . . . Nothing truly "professional" happens on the home computer, bought used for High $800's . . . hard to know what "the just right card" would be . . . certainly cheaper than buying a new computer, but, what price provides the card that would plug in without requiring a whole lot of nonsense . . . finding the happy medium between cost and power/speed/capacity.

Nice thing about linux is that if you have some idea of the name of the driver you can install it via console or synaptics . . . . They didn't show the GTX 1050 for the MP 5,1 . . . . I have done some "no video" commands via console, if it is short then it isn't too difficult, but if it is very complicated process it can be problematic . . . .

It does bring into question the continued "friendship" with OSX . . . which keeps upping the ante . . . on their own equipment . . . .


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