XYMer's Home away from Home

When http://bbs.xlr8yourmac.com is down (i.e. always)
It is currently Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:18 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 53 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 8:20 pm
Posts: 2235
MonkeyBoy wrote:
Remember that AD screensaver which was a fully fledged game in it's own right? I think it was Lunatic Fringe...
Yes, I used to play this one for many hours!!!
MacBiter wrote:
- Spectre Supreme ... took me ages but I finally completed it (took you back to the start but with your score intact)
This might have been the first mac game I played! It got very hard as the levels progressed!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:55 pm
Posts: 1849
FYI - on Mr H's PowerBook 170, which - believe it or not - he uses daily, he is running System 7.5 (or is it 7.6? we probably didn't do an update)!!!

_________________
Mrs H


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:03 pm 
Offline
Benevolent Dictator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:03 am
Posts: 14371
Quote:
one that simulated a virus - it took the screen you had when it started then slid the characters and graphics down the screen into a messy heap at the bottom. Scary if you didn't know what it was...

On the Ataris we had an Accessory called Melt that did the same.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 8:13 pm
Posts: 9183
Location: Caught between the moon and NYC
If you're running 7.5, you certainly missed a few updates, since 7.5.5 was the last 7.5 release. I don't remember if there was a free 7.5.x to 7.6 upgrade or not, you might have had to buy the boxed product.

Turns out that 7.5.1 was the first to have the Mac OS splash screen, while 7.6 was the first to call itself Mac OS.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:09 am
Posts: 468
MonkeyBoy wrote:
I'll do you one better... Lunatic Fringe for any OS:
http://fringe.jamescarnley.com/


No, I never played that... and I'm very very poor at it! But here's an online Space Invaders for you (the original game..):

http://www.mysteinbach.ca/game-zone/85/space-invaders/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:28 pm 
Offline
Benevolent Dictator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:03 am
Posts: 14371
Yes, 7.6 was a paid upgrade of at least $99, & the first one on CD as I recall.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 8:13 pm
Posts: 9183
Location: Caught between the moon and NYC
Didn't they try to charge for 7.5 too, originally? I swear I remember having a 7.5 box.


That space invaders clone looks right but plays different. When you kill either the 2nd to last or the last few dudes it's supposed to speed up, until the last guy is flying across the screen and you have to lead your shot by a crazy amount. Futurama plays like I remember it. "Increase speed, drop down, and reverse direction!"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:35 pm 
Offline
Benevolent Dictator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:03 am
Posts: 14371
Not sure,but my Quadra came with 7.1.2, (uhhhggg), but updates were free all the way to 7.5.5, though I think you could order Floppies for a charge.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:09 am
Posts: 468
MonkeyBoy wrote:
Didn't they try to charge for 7.5 too, originally? I swear I remember having a 7.5 box.

Yes, I'm pretty sure you're right, which is why I stuck with 7.1.1 on the Duo until I replaced it with a PB 3400 which came with OS 8.

MonkeyBoy wrote:
That space invaders clone looks right but plays different. When you kill either the 2nd to last or the last few dudes it's supposed to speed up, until the last guy is flying across the screen and you have to lead your shot by a crazy amount. Futurama plays like I remember it. "Increase speed, drop down, and reverse direction!"

Yes, that's always bothered me about the online versions - the arcade machines had that last critter moving so fast you had to really anticipate its position then fire. Hahaha - just watched that clip, it's brilliant. I loved the Pac-Man bit...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 8:13 pm
Posts: 9183
Location: Caught between the moon and NYC
BDAqua wrote:
Not sure,but my Quadra came with 7.1.2, (uhhhggg), but updates were free all the way to 7.5.5, though I think you could order Floppies for a charge.
I think there was a boxed product but it wasn't required, I bought it just because I wanted a shiny shrinkwrapped box on my shelf. Or maybe 7.5 wasn't completely free initially and the upgrade applications came out a short time later...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:09 am
Posts: 468
MonkeyBoy wrote:
BDAqua wrote:
Not sure,but my Quadra came with 7.1.2, (uhhhggg), but updates were free all the way to 7.5.5, though I think you could order Floppies for a charge.
I think there was a boxed product but it wasn't required, I bought it just because I wanted a shiny shrinkwrapped box on my shelf. Or maybe 7.5 wasn't completely free initially and the upgrade applications came out a short time later...


Could be that they started charging for 7.5, then made it free when 7.5.5 came rolling on by?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:20 pm 
Offline
Benevolent Dictator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:03 am
Posts: 14371
I'm thinking I remember 7.5.3, 7.5.4, etc... for free.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:44 pm 
Offline
Master

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:24 am
Posts: 9593
Location: North of the State of Jefferson
Off topic, but I really liked the PowerBook 170. The active matrix LCD was very clear and readable even with the backlight turned off, and with the backlight off I could run it for six or eight hours on a single charge. In direct sunlight it was fantastic. It was a great word processing system, had a nice keyboard, and was more than fast enough for the software of the time.

- Anonymous


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:09 am
Posts: 468
I never saw the 170, but I nearly bought its predecessor the 165 as my first Mac - that was early 1994 and by the time I was ready to buy it (summer) the Duo 280 had come out, so I got that instead.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:55 pm
Posts: 1849
Anonymous wrote:
Off topic, but I really liked the PowerBook 170. The active matrix LCD was very clear and readable even with the backlight turned off, and with the backlight off I could run it for six or eight hours on a single charge....

- Anonymous

Further off topic:
I checked the OS whilst Mr H was working this morning. Definitely System 7.5.
The screen is almost black and nearly impossible to see; the battery died ages ago and the thing only works when plugged in - but that's OK - it works!
Our first Mac was a MacPlus (cute little bugger but it died a few years ago) running I don't know what, purchased some time around 1986. Wikipedia tells me it had a price tag of $2599 - hard to believe - and then you had to buy that separate external HD so the thing had a memory.

_________________
Mrs H


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:19 pm 
Offline
Benevolent Dictator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:03 am
Posts: 14371
Us Atari people were scratching our heads & gigging about you Mac users in '86! :fishsmack:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:55 pm
Posts: 1849
BDAqua wrote:
Us Atari people were scratching our heads & gigging about you Mac users in '86! :fishsmack:


What's Atari?? :lol:

_________________
Mrs H


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:55 pm 
Offline
Master

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:24 am
Posts: 9593
Location: North of the State of Jefferson
MacBiter wrote:
I never saw the 170, but I nearly bought its predecessor the 165 as my first Mac - that was early 1994 and by the time I was ready to buy it (summer) the Duo 280 had come out, so I got that instead.

The 165 came a couple years after the 170. The original three PowerBooks were the 100 (with a 68000 processor and lead-acid battery), the 140, and 170. The 140 was replaced by the 145, then 160, and finally the 165 and 165c...if I recall correctly. Somewhere in there was the 145B. The 170 was replaced by the 180 and 180c.

The PowerBook 180 was also a nice machine for its active matrix grayscale display, but it wasn't as nice to use without the backlight as the 170. Apple used a couple different panels for the 170, and some were better than others: the one that passed light when the panel was off was the best but also less common.

- Anonymous


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:09 am
Posts: 468
Anonymous wrote:
The 165 came a couple years after the 170. The original three PowerBooks were the 100 (with a 68000 processor and lead-acid battery), the 140, and 170. The 140 was replaced by the 145, then 160, and finally the 165 and 165c...if I recall correctly. Somewhere in there was the 145B. The 170 was replaced by the 180 and 180c.


With that numbering system, you can tell Steve Jobs wasn't around.. :lol:

Mrs H wrote:
Our first Mac was a MacPlus (cute little bugger but it died a few years ago) running I don't know what, purchased some time around 1986. Wikipedia tells me it had a price tag of $2599 - hard to believe - and then you had to buy that separate external HD so the thing had a memory.


My PB 3400 cost me nearly £1500 in 1998 - I thought that was a bargain because six months before it was listed at £4000!! But Steve Jobs was back, the Fisher-Price iBook was newly released so the price of the 3400 plummeted.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:55 pm
Posts: 1849
MacBiter wrote:
...

Mrs H wrote:
Our first Mac was a MacPlus (cute little bugger but it died a few years ago) running I don't know what, purchased some time around 1986. Wikipedia tells me it had a price tag of $2599 - hard to believe - and then you had to buy that separate external HD so the thing had a memory.


My PB 3400 cost me nearly £1500 in 1998 - I thought that was a bargain because six months before it was listed at £4000!! But Steve Jobs was back, the Fisher-Price iBook was newly released so the price of the 3400 plummeted.


I just don't remember paying that much - then I remembered educator's discount!

_________________
Mrs H


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:16 pm 
Offline
Master

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:24 am
Posts: 9593
Location: North of the State of Jefferson
You could often find them for a lot less than retail price. In the early 1980s margins on Apple computers were around 40% at retail, which left lots of wiggle room in pricing. Thing tightened up after that, but even by 1990 or 1992 margins on Macs were, if I recall correctly, around 25% for a retailer, so you could find good deals from time-to-time (although rarely advertised). There were also educational pricing discounts that essentially got you the computer from an education outlet for the same as what a retailer would pay Apple, so good deals abounded. By 1996 margins were razor thin for retailers, from 9-15%, and have gone done further since then; the last I heard 6-8% was common. Those horrific margins, combined with falling overall prices, decimated the retail channel for Apple products. The career salespeople moved on, quality of service declined, and eventually Apple moved in to directly fill the void.

- Anonymous


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:55 pm
Posts: 1849
Thanks for the explanation, Anon. Eye-opening info.

_________________
Mrs H


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 8:10 pm
Posts: 3178
Location: Spain
Some more insight on Apple Retail.

With exception of the US, there was very little real competition between Apple retailers. Apple used a network of authorised dealers (of different categories) to channel its products to the general public. Often small shops specialising in professional solutions that generated added value through services and often only in major cities.

This situation was a major hinderance to gaining marketshare as few people even had access to a Mac and very would see one by accident. It was like a club situation and focussed on DP and graphic design. Education was another channel but not like in the US. Prices were high. Far too high too compete with the likes of HP. It was also the height of the Windows monopoly and Microsoft was puling every string in the book to make sure it stayed that way. When CDs became popular it was common to see the press with giveaways to boost sales of magazines, newspapers etc. 90% of the software on those CDs wouldn't run on a Mac in spite of the fact that most of it was created in Director. Licencing issues made it inviable to include a player for Mac on the CDs.

When the LCs became Performas and then iMacs, Apple was clearly trying to get into the home but the distribution model was broken. I campaigned for Apple to open its own stores and deal directly with its customers if it wanted to progress. I even wrote an open letter in the Spanish MacWorld which was replied to by the head of Apple Spain. An answer that wasn't an answer as the Apple subsidiaries had to follow orders from Cupertino (via Apple Europe) and Apple itself had no idea about the problems in its overseas markets.

Later Apple took a step forward with sections in large department stores that were staffed by people who at least had an idea. Prices were still an impediment but at least people were seeing macs on their daily shopping and asking about them.

The classic Mac retailers that weren't specialised enough in one or another field began to drop away as sales declined (PCs were now doing what Macs had done for years in Graphic design and DP) but Apple started to have a presence in major retail.

In the end they finally 'got it' and opened their own stores (US only at first) but gradually things went worldwide and the rest is history. Without the stores we would not be where we are now.

Other factors also had a major influence in persuading people to splash out on Macs. The Halo effect was real. The switch to intel was necessary if PPC couldn't move fast enough. Office for Mac was another key factor.

But it doesn't matter what you have to offer if people just aren't seeing your product in stores and the old model of street stores in low traffic areas was killing any likelihood of getting into the domestic market.

The switch to Apple Retail was the real lifesaver for Apple until it could create its other pillars (iPod, iPhone, iPad).

Ironically this success has led us back to one of the original problems: overpriced hardware. The problem is that people lap it up so they won't bring prices down. Apple's margins are high again and now the middleman is basically gone. It's actually worse. Apple has such negotiating strength on components that it can now force its some competitors sit out of certain fights.

It took them far too long long but they got the retail thing sorted out in the end.

_________________
VILA: They missed us! Avon's gadget works!
BLAKE: [to Avon] Is something wrong?
AVON: It just occurred to me, that as the description of a highly sophisticated technological achievement, 'Avon's gadget works' seems to lack a certain style.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 2:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:09 am
Posts: 468
Avon B7 wrote:
In the end they finally 'got it' and opened their own stores (US only at first) but gradually things went worldwide and the rest is history. Without the stores we would not be where we are now.

Other factors also had a major influence in persuading people to splash out on Macs. The Halo effect was real. The switch to intel was necessary if PPC couldn't move fast enough. Office for Mac was another key factor.

But it doesn't matter what you have to offer if people just aren't seeing your product in stores and the old model of street stores in low traffic areas was killing any likelihood of getting into the domestic market.

The switch to Apple Retail was the real lifesaver for Apple until it could create its other pillars (iPod, iPhone, iPad).

Ironically this success has led us back to one of the original problems: overpriced hardware. The problem is that people lap it up so they won't bring prices down. Apple's margins are high again and now the middleman is basically gone. It's actually worse. Apple has such negotiating strength on components that it can now force its some competitors sit out of certain fights.

It took them far too long long but they got the retail thing sorted out in the end.

A very interesting thesis - thanks for that. I'd actually argue that the Stores and the iPod were contemporaneous (even though the Stores were planned earlier) and that the growing success of both were a kind of 'feedback reinforcement loop'; in other words the two had a symbiotic relationship which grew tenfold when the iPhone came along. Would the iPod and iPhone have been so successful without the Stores? Possibly, though not as much. Would the Stores have taken off with only computers as a focus? Probably not.

Apple has revisited its hardware prices since the dark days of the 90s, but nowhere near as much as its competitors. It seems content to sit on a mountain of cash rather than bring prices down. I suspect the real reason for that is that Apple still sees itself as the BMW or Jaguar of digital electronics, rather than a Ford or Nissan, and fears that upping its production considerably would erode that perspective. In other words, making massive margins on quality niche (but increasingly popular) products with a million imitators, beats being (yawn) taken for granted until no-one loves you, as happened to Microsoft.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:25 pm 
Offline
Master

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:24 am
Posts: 9593
Location: North of the State of Jefferson
Even in the US Apple had tightly controlled distribution channels that the company managed so that different channels would basically never compete, but the bigger problem seemed to be that even at the height of Apple's influence in the late 1980s and very early 1990s the market base still wasn't big enough to support real competition in storefront retail, which of course meant that there wasn't a lot of retail product exposure, which meant that the market didn't expand very much, etc. This may have in part been due to the Apple authorized retailer channel model, but it didn't help that anyone who hoped to make money selling Macs needed knowledgeable and dedicated staff, which were often an investment that non-specialty store weren't interested in making. Without that dedication Macs were a losing proposition, and kind of pain, so it's no wonder that Apple struggled in storefront retail. There were a few experiments with dedicated staff in established stores, but the result seemed pretty shallow and didn't work out well.

By the mid-1990s the expansion of the mail order channel came in no small part at the expense of the storefront retail channel, and that combined with drastically declining margins, some horrible products, rudderless leadership, and the release of Windows 95 that ate away at the Mac's old advantages, left the specialty retailer severely struggling and killed a lot of them.

I'm still torn between trying to decide whether it was the PowerBook 5300 series or the Performa 6200 series that were the worst computers Apple ever made. I really can't decide since they were both so awful.

- Anonymous


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 53 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group