XYMer's Home away from Home

Okay, gang. My TV is melted, my speakers are a loss, and I need to replace. I'm working on a replacement value budget plus a bit more, so it's not a crazy blow out.

Here's what I have that's fine: XBox 360, PS3 and HD Dish Receiver

Here's what I'm considering:

Panasonic Viera TC-P50G25 50" Full HD 1080p Plasma HDTV (replaces my melted Pana 42" plasma 1080i)
I've had a Pana plasma for a few years, love it, and the new models are super highly rated. My best friend, who services Spielburg's AV and security gear at home (no, I'm not kidding... hell, I didn't even know it until a few months ago that it was his company's big client) only installs Panasonic screens for their clients. CNET has some interesting updates on black levels not holding as well in last year's models, but even thought doesn't sway me much.

Onkyo TX-SR707 (replaces a not dead but useless Pana HTiaB unit)
I've thought a lot about this one, especially vs. the 607 and given Squishy Tia's recent Onkyo experiences, and there's a pretty good consensus that at this price point (I can get an authorized refurb for $499 of the 707), the 707 is the winner. However, if there's a brand I'm ignoring for Onkyo's good name, I'm all ears (except Sony, which sucks balls)

Onkyo SKS-HT540 7.1 Channel Home Theater Speaker System
Same as above. I like the price point on this unit ($265), and pairing brands usually ends in good results. However, I open to suggestions. It's an odd room, so the small speakers are ideal.

The walls are gutted, so I'll be running 16-gauge wire throughout, then having them come together in a nice, organized panel behind the entertainment center with banana clips and the like (new concept to me, honestly, and my buddy insist I do it right for once *grin*). The surrounds will all be wall mounted with decent angle brackets (which i've seen, just have to hunt down).

Anything I'm forgetting, audio experts?

Not 100% certain what my budget will be until the checks get cut, but I'm planning with a general budget of about 2500 in mind for the whole works, or less if possible.

Thanks for any feedback.

Depending on the length of the cables, I'd go 14 gauge...

Try something like this here for those longer runs where you're running a pair of cables:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/produ ... 1&format=2

Make sure you get Monster Cable. You know they have to be good when the wires cost more than the components.

Matching speakers to AVRs is unimportant. Usually those that make AVRs do not make good speakers. But at your price point, not much you can do. That said, it's matching speakers to speakers that is important for home theater. Mismatch and you'll really be able to sell which speakers sound "different". If you're not going for Loud and Low (or super clarity), many HTiaB speaker sets will work for you. You can always upgrade later when money and life permits.



You should be using banana plugs. They have the best possible grip/connection per sq. in. ratio of any connector, even well above that of spades. It also makes it very easy to move things around since it's pull out, push in, done. Monoprice.com is your friend for these. I'd get two of the black banana pairs and three red (black FrL, SurL; red FrR, SurR, C). Make sure to get the paired bananas, not the individual ones. Pairs hold better, and match 99% of the AVRs' output binding posts. Monoprice is also your friend for speaker wire. It's cheap. Literally 1/10th that of Monster and the like for the same exact stuff.

Edit: If you can spring the extra $3 or $4ish, get the 12AWG wire from monoprice. A +1 on this if you plan to run longer than 15" or intend to go in-wall. If you want in-wall, get 12AWG that is CL3 Rated or you'll be sorry.

Note: The only time you may wish to use "pin" style speaker connectors is if your surround posts are the spring clip type. Some AVRs and almost all HTiaB units use these cheap bastards. Bananas will not fit in those. The SR-707 does not use spring clips on any channel (just checked at crutchfield).

For speaker brackets, you want these. They go under the new model # of "Pinpoint AM40". These are great for not messing up your speakers by having to drill into them. I'll be using these for my rears. Get yours here.



The 707 is a capable machine. If you could afford it, the NR-807 is far better and has an Ethernet connector for network capability (and firmware downloads - and trust me you WILL be wanting the latest firmware on Onkyo AVRs). The main caveat with Onkyo AVRs, and the exact reason I returned my juicy TX-NR5007 was the Audyssey room configuration system. You see, there are two "curves" that are preprogrammed and used by the Audyssey system. The second is the one that gets modified and finalized when you do the room configuration, but it is based off of the first curve, which utilizes a flat "curve" for rolloff. The modified Audyssey curve ALWAYS has a high rolloff starting at 6.3KHz (6300 Hz) which gets exceedingly steep past 10K Hz. What this has a tendancy to do is make highs muffled and muddy. HTiaB speakers generally can't go that high very easily as it is and having a rolloff that steep only worsens the problem.

In your pricing area, I'd suggest Denon instead. Their power supplies are a bit beefier against the comparable Onkyos in the respective price ranges, and their Audyssey PEQ sounds better. YMMV, however on that. But if the Audyssey thing doesn't mean anything to you, take the Onkyo as long as it has the same warranty as a NIB AVR.

As for TVs, for plasmas, Panasonic and Samsung are right up there. For LCD/LED displays, I'd go Samsung. Their non-plasma panels are brighter and crisper than the competition. And if it hadn't been for a screwup on Discover's part I'd have a 32" Samsung LED on my desk as my movie/computer monitor.

Just whatever you do, steer clear of Pioneer unless you intend to go with their Elite line, which actually is good. Their non-elite line is....well, crappier than Sony. And that's saying a lot.

And you have my condolences on the fishies. Tia like fishies. Fishies cute. Tia miss fishies.

Why a plasma? I thought they were being phased out because of the cost to run them

Ha! I knew someone would say that

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I sold audio components for a few years, but it was mostly low end consumer stuff like Technics and Sony, so the extent of my expertise is setting up four speakers with 16g wire and turning on "surround" to amaze people who had boomboxes

I was thinking about speaker placement and wire runs last night again, and it's such a funky ass room. I'm not certain where to even best put the speakers. I'll see if I can post a sketch of the room and see if anyone has ideas. I'd really appreciate some feedback on that end of it.

What I'm looking at for wire runs for the rear surrounds, since the walls are open and I can go more directly, is probably something in the range of 25-30' of wire, probably, for each of the rears and then the side surrounds would probably be 15-20'. I'm fine with going up to 14g or even 12g if the price isn't too crazy. Since this is a one-time thing, I would rather do it right.

Actually, everything I'm reading is showing a resurgence of plasma, now that a few other companies are jumping back in with Panasonic. Also, the power consumption is greatly reduced vs. older versions. That, and they're still much better than LCDs on black levels and for sports, despite the improvements on the LCD front. I also need the better viewing angle because of a funky room.

It's also partially because that's what I like, and at that size, the price point at quality level is better in plasmas. It's little things, but I'm just a plasma guy

I wasn't sure, so that's good to know. I think what I want is a reasonable price for a complete speaker set that I don't have to think too much about right now. If matching brands isn't essential, I'd be interested if anyone has suggestions for speaker sets of any brand that you'd recommend for less than $400, probably.



I knew you'd say that about the banana plugs, same as my installer friend Definitely going that route, and the links he'd sent me were for the Monoprice pairs, so that's good to have double recommends from trusted sources. I've bought from them for years anyway, but it's good to know they're good for that stuff. Out of curiosity, you don't have one for the sub... that doesn't need a pair, so color won't matter?



Really good to know about the CL3 rating. I wasn't certain about that for in-wall, so that answers that question.



Thanks for that info, too. I wonder if the speaker set I was looking at uses those spring clips... I'll have to do some research. I actually love the idea of having the speaker wires all nicely organized behind the entertainment center with a wall panel and banana plugs. It'll not only sound better, but it'll look better.



Awesome, thanks! I saw some on Amazon, but wasn't sure if they were going to require drilling. This makes things way nicer.



This is the area where I'm really unsure, honestly. I remember you talking about the curve issue, and part of what seems so attractive to a non-expert like me is that I can put that mic down and let it sort out its own business What you're saying, though, makes sense. The Onkyo TX-NR807 is pretty pricey... looks like I could probably get a refurb unit (authorized unit w/warranty) for $699. Despite spending what seems like days looking at units and reading reviews, I know I'm still missing stuff. Given the odd shape of the room and the need to put the speakers at non-traditional angles, I really like the idea of a smart configuration, but I was thinking that the Audyssey system was an Okyo thing.

I know that Denon makes good stuff, but I know little about it. Any recs for models I should look at? I'm going to do some looking tonight at Denon.



I'll miss them, too. They were good companions, and with as much help BD gave me, they were about as low maintenance a pet a person could have. I still have a 20-gallon tank in the basement, and I may, at some point, get back into it and try some tropical fish for a change. It'll be a while, though.

Thanks again!

Onkyo and Denon are about on par with each other, with the two main differences being in the power supplies (Denon has it in the lower end, Onkyo has it in the higher end, both have it in the midrange), and the Audyssey quirks. Onkyos force the Audyssey curve no matter what. Not all Denons do. Which ones, unfortunately I do not know.

Yamahas' YPAO room equalization (Yamaha's answer to Audyssey) works very well, and on some models lets you take samples from up to eight positions, using a tri-mic sample for the final (read: user) listening position. Problem is, the two mid-high Yamahas use the Anchor Bay 1010 scaler for HDMI, and it is HORRIBLE. The two models to avoid are the Yamaha 2900/3900. I kinda want the Z11, but um...1) it's Discontinued, which means virtually zero stock, and 2) even at the huge (and we're talking $3000 less than list) discount of $2400, it's still $2400 and too much for me.

If the place you're getting the Onkyo has a good return policy, try the unit out and see if it meets your ears' satisfaction. If it does, then enjoy and don't worry. If not, try another unit. One thing though - do NOT expect help from Onkyo's customer service dept. They're spectacularly rude and unpleasant to deal with. The exact opposite of their hardware setup/methods.

Anywho, give the 707 a whirl. If it meets your needs and you have no desire for network capability, grats, you found a steal.

Looks like the Denon AVR990 is about the only one I could possibly see within sight of my price range, $899, and that's pushing it, since I need speakers, too. The thing I hate about the Denon lines is that they have two separate lines that are basically the same thing with almost no discernible difference. I hate when companies do that. It's confusing and annoying.

I think between the Denon AVR990 and the Onkyo NR807... no idea

Dumb question: difference between 7.1 and 7.2?

Onkyo SKS-HT750 7.1-Channel Home Theater Speaker System looks like it's out there for less than $300 at B&H, which looks like a great deal. The closest thing on Cruchfield I see is Polk Audio RM87 Home Theater Speaker System for $500.

I think you've convinced me to spend the extra and get the NR807 if I'm going Onkyo. The networking capabilities for firmware updates is a really smart catch.

The difference between x.1 and x.2 notations in an AVR is the newfangled addition of "stereo" subwoofer capability (or the ability to output the same channel to two distinct subs). It's more of a marketing gimmick than anything real, though it's out there because many, like myself intend to use a stereo sub setup to really kick the bass through the walls and down the street.

But in my case, it's because I like overkill, and the fact that Overkill = less power used to play loud and low in my room.

Here's my setup:

AVR: Yamaha HTR-5860
Front Speakers: Polk RTi-A9 x2
Center Speaker: Polk CSiA6
Surround L/R: Polk TSi200 x2
Subwoofer: Polk DSW MicroPro 4000
Amplifiers: Adcom GFA-555 MkII x2; Each amplifier powers a single RTi-A9 speaker in vertical bi-amp configuration.

If you're wondering why I went with the TSi for the surrounds instead of the RTi-A3s, I had two reasons. First, the price differential was just too much. $200 more for a pair of A3s, and the A3, while it has the powerport plus (which does help with chuffing noise), has only a single woofer where the TSi has two. Second, the TSi200s actually mesh very well with the A9s' upper arrays, despite the difference in driver materials for the woofers. The tweeters are identical.

I used an SPL meter (sound level meter) to see just how loud my A9s get before the Adcoms' distortion lights even begin to flicker at all. 154db. One hundred fifty freaking four decibels. Daaaaaaaaayum. "Reference" level is approximately 100db, the sound level inside a typical theater. Needless to say, I have headroom. And that headroom leads to MUCH clearer sound than if one Adcom powered both A9s. I also eliminated crosstalk between channels, which in some ways is good and bad for me. It's good in that it opens up the sound stage and clarity of separation for L/R channels. It's bad in that I have one working ear. I can distinguish stereo, but the right is slightly lower sounding now since it has no left channel info due to crosstalk. But goddamn do movies convey spot on SFX now!

Mmmm...overkill. Just need one more sub...

Congrats on your 1,000th post

Also, thanks for the information and feedback. I'm going to order the Onkyo SKS-HT750 speaker system today, since the price is great and I get free shipping from B&H as a NAPP member.

Now it's just a matter of getting some reimbursement money from insurance and I'll start assembling the rest of the theater. I also have to either instruct the electrician on where I need the speaker wires or get in and run them myself if he doesn't want to, which is fine by me. For now, it's just getting the wires run where I generally want them.

It's a little hard to tell from this pic with the soot and lack of lighting, but I'm standing in the doorway. The TV is on the wall to my immediate right out of view, and where the couch is is the general area where it'll be. The bar area is actually sliding all the way to the right side of the room, and the ceiling will be a flat sheetrocked one, instead of the oddball "beams" that are there now. Thinking of putting the rears in the far back corners of side, then the side surrounds midway along the wall all the way up to the ceiling and then the front speakers in normal position.



I'll try to figure out a diagram and some better pictures.

Banana Plugs - Closed Screw Type or Open Screw Type?

Looking to grab this panel: http://bacn.me/154n

Question about the other end: since the speakers are all spring clips, should I even bother with a wall panel, or just run the wire through the sheetrock direct to the speaker? I considered doing a single banana clip plate at the wall near the speaker and then running a short line to the speaker, but that seems like asking for trouble by introducing more interference...

Heh. Figures that when I get home from work monoprice goes down for maintenance and I can't check the panel.

Either way, panel or no, if you use more than one connector at each end (i.e. you couple a wire with a second wire) you'll lose about 3-3.5db worth of volume, thus about half of your amplifier's power at any given volume level. Done properly though, you can minimize the signal loss. From your AVR's location, which I assume will have its own panel on the wall near it, you'll want as short a length as you can get going from the AVR to Panel 1. From Panel 1 you'll go to Panel 2. Both Panel 1 and Panel 2 should be of the 5-way binding post type. It doesn't necessarily have to be gold plated, but it does help stave off corrosion in most environments. Internally between the two panels the CL3 rated wire, preferrably 12 AWG since you're running in-wall, the wires will be connected directly to the rear of each of the panels. Make sure to mark the speaker position and wire polarity for each cable length on both ends and match them up or you'll be in for a massive headache figuring out why your speakers sound like they're inside a barrel.

The reason for the 5-way binding posts is that you can use bananas on the wall end and whatever connector is necessary at the speaker end. The AVR to Panel 1 will be bananas on both ends, while Panel 2 to Speakers will be bananas -> pin connectors. I suggest pin connectors in spring clip terminals because bare speaker wire is generally not securely held in place very well in those terminals. For wall mounted speakers, angled pins work best instead of straight pins, to ease the strain on the wires.

As for Open Screw or Closed Screw, go Open. This has a hole in the screw for the bare wire, and as you tighten the screw, it moves a cylinder inside the screw against the speaker wire securing it in place. Closed screw types have the wire going in the center area of the screw (like the barrel of a gun) and you twist the cable clockwise (as in point the cable horizontally at a clock and twist in the direction of the clock), because when you tighten the screw to secure the cable, it has a counter-clockwise force on it. If you twist the cable CCwise, it will strip the cable strands in no time flat. So yeah, open screw it the way to go for ease of use and moving around.

For rear speaker placement (surround back), you want them equidistant from you to the left or right of the listening position, and at or above ear level. How you angle them up or down is purely preference, as each speaker's "sweet spot" is different. Side surround (Surround L/R on most AVRs), you want them also equidistant and at or above ear level. Same as the rears. Front, you want them equidistant, with the tweeter just above ear level if you can manage it. Subwoofer should be placed near the front speaker, preferrably NOT in a corner if you can avoide it, facing the same direction as the front speakers. This is important. If you put the sub in the rear facing the fronts, you'll get standing bass waves which will cancel each other out and make the bass sound dull and muffled. The exception to this rule is if you have a bookshelf or other solid object in the path of the subwoofer that will refract the sound waves around the room, preventing phase cancellation.

If you have a powered sub, use the LFE input on it if it has one, and set your AVR's crossover to 80 Hz or 10Hz above the -3db Hz rating of the front speakers. In the case of my A9s, the "lower -3db limit" is 30 Hz, so my crossover would be 40 Hz if I were doing the fronts as Full Range (I do not - I have the crossover at 80 Hz and let the sub handle the rest below that).

For your speakers, set ALL of your speakers to "small" in the AVR's settings. This will enable full bass output to the subwoofer and do two things: 1) make the sound MUCH clearer, and 2) put far less strain on the AVR's power supply by only sending what each speaker can handle frequency-wise. If your AVR has a setting to adjust the LFE crossover, do not move it from 120 Hz, which is the THX crossover standard.

So to sum it up on crossovers:

All non-subwoofer speakers: Set to 80 Hz OR 10 Hz above the -3db lower limit spec.
Subwoofer channel: 80 Hz This is different from the LFE channel.
LFE Channel: 120 Hz (should be there by default)

NOTE: If your subwoofer has no LFE input, but has instead L/R inputs with a variable crossover knob, set the knob to the highest setting (usually around 160 or 200 Hz), so that your AVR's internal crossover does the handling of the signal. Otherwise your bass signal will get a double-dip when the AVR uses its crossover and your subwoofer uses its own crossover (i.e. if your sub's XO is the same or lower than your AVR's XO). Again, LFE use is preferrable in all cases.

When using the Audyssey configuration system, set your sub to the halfway mark for volume first, then do the Audyssey configuration. You can then fine tune the sub's level after the Audyssey system has set up each speaker's level and EQ curve. And I guarantee you will have to do this. Audyssey and YPAO both get the sub's distance and frequency calculations wrong half the time.

I know it's a lot to take in, but man, when you get things set up properly, not only does the T-Rex literally shake you alive, but the music from CDs and Radio comes alive seamlessly too. It's less in the materials used (except for in-wall installations where you want 12 AWG wire for the run length and signal integrity) and more about how you set things up. You can be an audiophile without going all Tube and such horseshit.

You can have an overkill setup like mine, but if you don't configure it just right, it'll sound worse than any HTiaB setup you could find out there.

Okay, that's going to take some rereading. I know I'm not digesting all those point entirely, but I've got a few weeks, thankfully

I can't thank you enough for the advice and insane technical detail. Amazing.

You don't like beer, by any chance? If you live in the States, I would gladly ship you some yeast samples once we've returned and I'm brewing again

One quick thing that jumps out... you mention not putting the sub in the corner, but Onkyo's diagram for their speaker setups indicate the sub in the corner, which I found odd anyway, as I've always had it sitting right alongside my entertainment center.

I think the panel I have in my cart is a 5-way panel with all the connections for a 7.2 setup, but once their site is back up, I'll know.

Question on the sub, since it'll be right near the AVR: should I bother having it go to the panel, if it sits right near to the cabinet, or should I just run it direct to the AVR?

I think my general idea is this:

AVR in cabinet below the TV; speaker wires with banana clips on both ends running from AVR to panel (except sub, possibly); speaker wires from the back of the wall panel directly to the speaker locations (12g, CL3 in cart already); speaker wire direct to the speakers (w/pin connectors) or to a wall plate for each speaker.

The other question is the front speakers, since that set has relatively small units without stands: wall mount as wide as possible centered on general listening area?

Honestly, there is no ideal place for the "sub." Actually, it's NOT a sub, it's a woofer, BTW... a subwoofer plays below a woofer. That means below 50hz. So home theater subs aren't really subs.

If you want a real sub, this is one:
http://www.sunfire.com/productdetail.asp?id=9

Anyway, back to the point...where to put your (so called) sub. The question is how large your main speakers are and whether or not you can bring your crossover as low as possible. That will give you more placement flexibility. Low frequencies are not directional. The whole stereo sub thing? Bunk. Well, unless you have crappy speakers like bose and need your (so called) subs to go up to 200hz. If you have decent speakers and can have your subwoofers cross over below 70hz or so, then you can put the sub anywhere. If you have to make the subs play higher because of smaller satellites, then placement becomes important.

The only real way to test it is to try it out.

The advantage of putting your sub against the wall or in the corner is it becomes more efficient, as the walls couple with the sub to increase the bass level. Corner is more efficient then a plain wall.

But, unless the most convenient place is behind your listening position, I'd put your sub at any point on the same wall as your L/C/R speakers and see how that sounds. If you can close your eyes and tell where the bass is coming from, you have a problem. If you can't... no problem.

...oh and your L/R speakers... common thought is to put them immediately to the left and right of your screen. Stretching them out as far left or right as possible means placement of cues on screen will look different then the mixers imagined.

psalad, if your sub is a front firing one, placement and direction does matter, but mostly for speakers that can reliably go below 80 Hz. If you place a front firing sub facing your L/R speakers, you will have phase cancellation in effect (standing waves). That is, any frequencies that both the front speakers and subwoofer can produce will in effect cancel each other out (not completely, but in a roughly -3 to -6db slope), which makes it seem like there are "holes" in the bass frequency range. Downfiring subs have no such problems unless they have a 90° or 270° phase inversion switch set to one of those positions, in which case it will cause virtually the same problem.

But downfiring subs also have their own ripple effect against their own cones, since the sound is first directed straight down, then when it bounces back up refracts off of the woofer's cone, which is angled. This is why the downfiring subs have less of a placement issue than front firing ones, since the bass is dispersed not once, but twice.

My sub presents a tricky proposition in placement, as it has both a front firing 12" active woofer and a 12"x12" downfiring passive bass radiator (the sunfire you linked to has a similar setup, but less placement demands as its passive radiator is rear facing and uses the wall as a diffraction point. BTW, my sub has the ability to go as low or lower (16 Hz) compared to the sunfire. Its -3db spec is 21 Hz. The sunfire sub doesn't have one listed, but with an 18 Hz "overall" lower limit, I'm willing to bet its -3db spec is in the ballpark with mine. I do like the sunfire's XLR connector capability though. I wish ALL AVR had this connection system. It virtually eliminates the hum you hear in many setups, as XLR uses a self contained ground system to prevent such occurences (which is why pro setups never have hum). Sadly, I've yet to see a consumer, or even a "prosumer" AVR south of $5000 that had XLR connectors for its outputs other than prepros (preamp processors).

Ideally I would want a good prepro with XLR in/outs (at least outs), and three of the Adcom GFA-555 SE amps (one each for L/R/Surround) and an Adcom GFA-5800 or equivalant to power the three remaining speakers (Center/Surround Back).

Stereo subs aren't complete bunk though. They are a gimmick for home theater since the LFE channel is monaural, and is encoded as such in the DTS/DD/TrueHD/DTS-Master Audio streams. Stereo subs come into play with true stereo sources where the front speakers handle the low-mid, mid, and high frequencies, and the subs (one for each channel) handle the bass output. You get some very well defined musical sound out of that arrangement. It's just extra fluff (and power hogging) for home theater, unless you have a very large room, can afford it, and want extra bass without increasing the sub's size/amplifier rating. But yes, the way they market it is pure bullshit and even I know that. 2.2 channel setups rock. 7.2 is just for those with hugeass rooms that need more than one sub.

I want a second sub specifically for the 2.2 setup, but it requires finding an AVR with two dedicated sub outputs that operate in true stereo mode when using direct/stereo sources. Good luck with finding that under $5k.

BTW, one thing I dislike about the sunfires: They go low, they go loud, but their bass is not tight. It's boomy. It's what people call "rap bass". It'll give you rumble, but subtlety isn't its strong poing. I prefer bass that is punchy but well controlled. But that is a user preference, so there is no right or wrong there. It's all in the ear of the beholder.

And it's not quite true that bass frequencies are non-directional. They are less easily localized, but they are not non-directional, and that's proven by the front firing sub vs. front speaker arrangement (phase cancellation). As I mentioned, downfiring subs disperse using the floor to radiate in all directions, making it appear to be non-directional. Front firing subs are the same as regular speakers: they emenate in a single dispersion range, which is why it said to users to place them near the front speakers, facing the same way. If you have it in the arrangement I have to do (due to room size limitations and spacing issues), then the only way you'll get good bass out of the sub if it's facing the front speakers is to reverse the phase to the sub so that its output doesn't cancel the fronts' output. I have less of a problem with this though, since my audio cabinet sits between the sub and the right front speaker, diffracting the sound waves.

For this situation here though, the weak point is going to be having to XO the sub at a very high point, likely at or above 120 Hz, due to the HTiaB speakers being lousy at outputting bass. You really want to avoid having to do so, because at 120 Hz XO, you aren't truly blocking everything above 120 Hz. You're rolling off the higher frequencies, usually at a slope of -6 or -12db (-6 being the most common one), and some of the higher freqs up to about 200 Hz are easily audible. That, and many subs rattle like crazy at 120 Hz and higher on the XO.

I won't even get into passive subs, because unless you have a DAMN good electronic XO between preamp and amp outputs, they suck.

If I blindfolded you and played you music through a sub playing below 75hz, downfiring vs. front firing won't make one iota of difference. You cannot localize frequencies that low. I could move the sub to a random location and you wouldn't get it right, unless your ears defy the laws of physics.

The sunfire subs are not bandpass like hip hop car stereos. I find them pretty tight. They have a completely different technology to them compared to bandpass. Unlike bandpass, these are set up to run below the resonant frequency of the speaker, while bandpass are set to run at or near the resonant frequency. Bandpass is VERY efficient, while the sunfire is very INEFFICIENT and needs a ton of power. A similar techology is used by bagend to power their sound reinforcement subs.

There are very few true subwoofers made at this point... I dislike how the term has been usurped.

The other problem with home theater subs (especially down firing) is they are slow. Visit someone with an HT system. Listen to music with a strong kick drum. Listen to the beater attack of the kick. Then listen to when the low end from the kick comes in. Notice the time delay. It's not a problem for "booms" from movies, but it is a problem for music. I prefer front firing, and I prefer non ported (acoustic suspension) because ports slow down transient responses. There are faster subs that are ported, but that's not true on the cheap. It might not bother you... but it does bother me.

I haven't measured it, but I would bet money there is no significant difference when a sub is forward firing vs. downfiring when it comes to standing waves.

Anyway, I stand by my original statement that .2 is bunk, unless you need your subs to play higher than say 80hz (Bose AM7 or whatever). A second sub is a sound idea for a large room, but NOT stereo.

I didn't necessisarily say I could localize them. But they are sound waves. Just because they're lower in frequency doesn't mean they're not directional. The very fact that you can move to another part of an open room and hear a difference in the sound disputes that. If they weren't directional, you wouldn't have any standing wave problems. Easy way to test the standing wave problem, assuming you have a speaker like mine that can go below 50 Hz with any oomph (these can): Set the Bass output on the AVR to "BOTH" instead of "Front" or "Subwoofer". You'll get a higher impact in some frequencies while losing a significant amount of detail in the overall soundstage, usually in the 40-80 Hz range. I have software that can generate test tones of varying types (sine, saw, triangle), at any frequency I choose. With "BOTH" selected (meaning both the L/R speakers AND the subwoofer are outputting identical frequencies within their respective overlap ranges), there is a marked loss at my listening position in terms of apparent volume. Some of the sound is still there, because by the nature of speaker cones, the sound, while originating at a single focal point, radiates within an arc (hence the "sweet spots"). But the sound that would normally proceed unimpeded is cancelled by the same sound at the same exact frequency going directly against each other.

It's even easier to test this by adding in the NORM and REV phase selections on AVRs. On mine, I can switch back and forth in the setting menu instantly without moving from my listening position and test the difference, which, depending on the frequencies being output, can be substantial. In the NORM position, my sub outputs bass, but at a markedly lower volume than would be expected. With the phase set to REV, bass is much more articulated and pronounced. But to make sure I wasn't fooling myself about the volume, I took my SPL meter and set it where I sit. I set the bass output to FRONT, and turned my speakers up to the 75db point (reference checking point, C weighted, Slow setting on the SPL meter). I then turned my amps off (as they control power to the speakers) and tuned the sub's volume to reach 75db as well, making them equal from the listening position. At that point, I let the meter sit there monitoring while I had the setting put at "Subwoofer" for the bass output, with both front and sub powered on. The meter read 75db for all test tones. But at the "BOTH" setting, the reading dropped to between 71-73db at the 40, 45, 50, 60, and 70 Hz frequencies. The only thing I changed was that both front and sub were now outputting the same tones at the same time at the same frequencies. There's your standing waves.

To note, a -3db loss is a 50% reduction in volume.

And I never referred to the sunfire as a bandpass sub. It's a sealed box...sort of. The sort of part comes from the fact that it has a force coupled bass radiator. Bass radiators, though not exactly explained all that well, are for all intents and purposes, fancy ports. This makes both the sunfire and my own sub a hybrid sealed/ported enclosure, that is, they're sealed physically, but because of the bass radiator, they act much like a ported sub, albeit with FAR less efficiency (hence the 2700 and 1200w amps in the sunfire/Polk subs respectively). Both of these subs are actually tuned for the 18-24 Hz range, assuming a volume level of ≥100db. They will output dramatically louder sound at those levels than any other, amplifier power permitting.

One more thing: AutoEQ settings like YPAO, Audyssey and other systems would not work with subs if bass were truly non-localized. The system would be unable to detect proper distance and phase of the subwoofer and calculate the proper volume levels for it if that were the case. That doesn't mean that low frequencies are easy to localize though. All of these systems can give false readings depending on the acoustics of the room and/or object placement between the listening position and the sub. I'm sure you've seen reports that people have had to try multiple times with AutoEQ setups before the system properly detected the sub. And the reason humans can't easily localize the bass is because our brains are taking in not a single sound sample, but samples from opposing directions (left/right). A unidirectional sampler (microphone) will have a far better chance of localizing the location of the bass signal (sub). Consider this: A subwoofer's own AEQ setup wouldn't function if there was no way to localize the source material.

Sidenote: The newest version of the Audyssey and YPAO auto setup systems allow multiple sample locations (up to 8 with YPAO, with the final being tri-way sample from the multidirectional mic at the listening position). This has helped a lot with gaps in the bass output from subs and front speakers.

Fun Fact of the Day: My subwoofer's test tones sound almost exactly like the "point counter" tones from the old Captain Power toys from the 80s to check your "scores". I'm serious, it's the same exact notes, only obviously the sub outputs at a much lower octave. Freaky.

Okay, I'm going to have to sit down and spend some serious time rereading, but just for clarification, the (sub)woofer in this speaker set (http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=SKS ... peaker&p=s) doesn't fire down, as near as I can tell. Here are the specs on it:

Subwoofer
Type Bass Reflex Powered
Woofer 10" Cone
Frequency Response 25 Hz-150 kHz
Max. Power 230 W
Dimensions (W x H x D) 10 13/16" x 19 15/16" x 16 3/16"
Weight 24.7 lbs.

This speaker set is a little for convenience, since I just want something decent while I juggle the rest of the mess.

Also, that Monoprice plate I was looking at was banana clips on both sides, not 5-way, which I don't think will work because I don't have much depth behind that wall.

Initially, I only have to worry about getting the 12g CL3 wire and select placement of the speakers as best I can. I'll try to do a rough diagram of the room tonight. It's a hard room to describe at the best of times, but with everything getting changed slightly, it's trickier.

Thanks again!

A very rough Skitch sketch of our room: