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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:30 pm 
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2012 13 inch macBook Pro 9,2 with 2.9 GHZ i7 and 8 GB Ram with a 5400 750 GB HDD (Apple HTS541075A9E622).

I was working on this computer and noticed how slow it is compared with my 2012 13 inch MacBook Pro 2.5 i5 8 GB ram. My laptop seems much snappier in comparison. The difference in hardware aside from CPU is the new hard drive I put in mine which is a 500GB Seagate Hybrid drive. That certainly makes a difference in many speed related things but honestly, even before I added the new hybrid (just recently) my Laptop was still snappier than the one with the faster i7 CPU. I've looked at the usual things like what loads at login and that doesn't account for anything. The only other thing I noticed was that the 750 GB drive is formatted journaled 'encrypted'. Could that cause the sluggish behavior? I'm out of ideas. I'm considering a 500 Hybrid drive for that laptop too. They aren't lightning fast but noticeable speed boost. I put this one in mine. I think even though the other laptop currently has a 750 GB drive, it only has 200 GB used so 500 GB might suffice. I like the price point.

Any ideas that might relate to this sluggishness?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:10 pm 
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Encripted certainly will be slower.

Open Activity Monitor in Applications>Utilities, select All Processes & sort on CPU%, any indications there?

How much free RAM & free Disk space do you have also, click on the Memory & Disk Usage Tabs.

Open Console in Utilities & see if there are any clues or repeating messages when this happens.

In the Memory tab of Activity Monitor, are there a lot of Pageouts?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:48 am 
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In Activity Monitor the only occasional odd heavy CPU usage is from mdworker. I think that is related to Spotlight. It occasionally bumps up to 29% but then lowers to nothing. The rest seems normal.

Memory is about 2.3GB used out of 8 GB total. Hard drive space used is about 200 GB out of 750 GB total. I don't see anything related to pageouts and nothing is obvious to me in console.


Question, can I make a clone from internal drive (formatted journaled encrypted) to an external (formatted extended journaled) and then reformat the internal extended journaled and clone it back?

Also, using diskutil list I see a couple of things I'm not totally familiar with. 1. It makes a reference to "Apple_CoreStorage" and 2. it has an Apple recovery partition. I thought those recovery partitions disappeared after 10.7. Reformatting will destroy that recovery partition, I'm not sure if it will be part of a cloned back up of that drive. In other words will the recovery partition exist after re-cloning back to internal drive from ext clone? Is Apple_CoreStorage just a function of the 'journaled encrypted' format? I usually see that term in connection with a home made hybrid drive. I usually see a reference to "Apple_ HFS".
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:26 am 
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What OSx version?

CoreStorage I believe is used for Hybrid drives among other things.

10.7 & up should have a Restore partition.

Reformatting & even cloning can be a problem on later OSX versions.

CCC is the only one that handles cloning the Restore Partition I believe.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:45 am 
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BDAqua wrote:
What OSx version?

CoreStorage I believe is used for Hybrid drives among other things.

10.7 & up should have a Restore partition.

Reformatting & even cloning can be a problem on later OSX versions.

CCC is the only one that handles cloning the Restore Partition I believe.

It is 10.10.3 yosemite. Will a TimeMachine back up handle that recovery partition? What about any issues related to cloning between the two different formats?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:23 am 
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You might want to run EtreCheck (totally legit), and copy the output here. Might give a clue or two.

http://www.etresoft.com/etrecheck


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:39 am 
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WZZZ wrote:
You might want to run EtreCheck (totally legit), and copy the output here. Might give a clue or two.

http://www.etresoft.com/etrecheck

Here is the output:Problem description:
sluggishness

EtreCheck version: 2.2 (132)
Report generated 7/14/15, 11:30 AM
Download EtreCheck from http://etresoft.com/etrecheck

Click the [Click for support] links for help with non-Apple products.
Click the [Click for details] links for more information about that line.

Hardware Information: ℹ️
MacBook Pro (13-inch, Mid 2012) (Technical Specifications)
MacBook Pro - model: MacBookPro9,2
1 2.9 GHz Intel Core i7 CPU: 2-core
8 GB RAM Upgradeable
BANK 0/DIMM0
4 GB DDR3 1600 MHz ok
BANK 1/DIMM0
4 GB DDR3 1600 MHz ok
Bluetooth: Good - Handoff/Airdrop2 supported
Wireless: en1: 802.11 a/b/g/n
Battery: Health = Normal - Cycle count = 178 - SN = W032544EZD3LC

Video Information: ℹ️
Intel HD Graphics 4000
Color LCD 1280 x 800

System Software: ℹ️
OS X 10.10.3 (14D136) - Time since boot: 12:6:30

Disk Information: ℹ️
APPLE HDD HTS541075A9E662 disk0 : (750.16 GB)
EFI (disk0s1) <not mounted> : 210 MB
Recovery HD (disk0s3) <not mounted> [Recovery]: 650 MB
Macintosh HD (disk1) / : 748.93 GB (540.09 GB free)
Encrypted AES-XTS Unlocked
Core Storage: disk0s2 749.30 GB Online

HL-DT-ST DVDRW GS31N

USB Information: ℹ️
Apple Inc. Apple Internal Keyboard / Trackpad
Apple Computer, Inc. IR Receiver
Apple Inc. BRCM20702 Hub
Apple Inc. Bluetooth USB Host Controller
Apple Inc. FaceTime HD Camera (Built-in)

Thunderbolt Information: ℹ️
Apple Inc. thunderbolt_bus

Gatekeeper: ℹ️
Mac App Store and identified developers

Kernel Extensions: ℹ️
/Library/Extensions
[loaded] com.sophos.kext.sav (9.2.50 - SDK 10.8) [Click for support]
[loaded] com.sophos.nke.swi (9.2.50 - SDK 10.8) [Click for support]

Launch Agents: ℹ️
[loaded] com.google.keystone.agent.plist [Click for support]
[loaded] com.oracle.java.Java-Updater.plist [Click for support]
[running] com.sophos.uiserver.plist [Click for support]

Launch Daemons: ℹ️
[loaded] com.adobe.fpsaud.plist [Click for support]
[loaded] com.google.keystone.daemon.plist [Click for support]
[loaded] com.microsoft.office.licensing.helper.plist [Click for support]
[loaded] com.oracle.java.Helper-Tool.plist [Click for support]
[loaded] com.oracle.java.JavaUpdateHelper.plist [Click for support]
[running] com.sophos.common.servicemanager.plist [Click for support]

User Login Items: ℹ️
iTunesHelper Application (/Applications/iTunes.app/Contents/MacOS/iTunesHelper.app)
Dropbox Application (/Applications/Dropbox.app)

Internet Plug-ins: ℹ️
FlashPlayer-10.6: Version: 18.0.0.203 - SDK 10.6 [Click for support]
QuickTime Plugin: Version: 7.7.3
Flash Player: Version: 18.0.0.203 - SDK 10.6 Outdated! Update
Default Browser: Version: 600 - SDK 10.10
SharePointBrowserPlugin: Version: 14.5.2 - SDK 10.6 [Click for support]
Google Earth Web Plug-in: Version: 7.1 [Click for support]
Silverlight: Version: 5.1.20913.0 - SDK 10.6 [Click for support]
JavaAppletPlugin: Version: Java 8 Update 40 Check version

User internet Plug-ins: ℹ️
CitrixOnlineWebDeploymentPlugin: Version: 1.0.105 [Click for support]

Safari Extensions: ℹ️
AdBlock

3rd Party Preference Panes: ℹ️
Flash Player [Click for support]
Java [Click for support]

Time Machine: ℹ️
Time Machine not configured!

Top Processes by CPU: ℹ️
4% WindowServer
1% fontd
0% taskgated
0% InterCheck
0% SophosUIServer

Top Processes by Memory: ℹ️
723 MB kernel_task
238 MB Safari
180 MB SophosScanD
172 MB InterCheck
115 MB mdworker(9)

Virtual Memory Information: ℹ️
3.12 GB Free RAM
4.88 GB Used RAM
0 B Swap Used

Diagnostics Information: ℹ️
Jul 13, 2015, 11:22:06 PM Self test - passed
============================
I think this might just be related to the encrypted format drive. Can you comment on how I might go about reformatting the internal to ext journaled? Again I'd like to not loose anything including the recovery partition if possible, although I will have either a Time Machine backup or a clone of the drive to an external drive.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:45 am 
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Sophos isn't helping anything speed wise, likely moreso on an encrypted volume.

I doubt the Restore Partition is encrypted.

A ™ backup to an unencrypted volume should work.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:45 am 
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Let me start from the top and sharpen my question a bit. I would like to change the 750 GB internal drive from encrypted to HFS extended Journaled. Currently I'm making a Time Machine Back up to a new external drive. The Laptop does contain an Apple restore partition. My questions relate to the correct procedures for making the internal 750 GB drive no longer encrypted. I think that is what's causing the sluggishness. Obviously I do NOT wish to loose any data or loose the Recovery partition. Boy, Apple doesn't make this easy anymore.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:15 am 
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They sure don't. :(

I'd use CCC to make clone of the drive & of the Restore Partition also... only App that can do that I think.

Can't you just turn off Filevault, which is what I think the Encrypted volume is anyway... or did you use some 3rd party App to Encrypt it?

https://support.apple.com/kb/PH18674?lo ... cale=en_US


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:34 am 
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BDAqua wrote:
They sure don't. :(

I'd use CCC to make clone of the drive & of the Restore Partition also... only App that can do that I think.

Can't you just turn off Filevault, which is what I think the Encrypted volume is anyway... or did you use some 3rd party App to Encrypt it?

https://support.apple.com/kb/PH18674?lo ... cale=en_US

BDA, I think you are correct, file vault is on. I can turn it off but what happens at that point? Is the current state of the drive changed?

If I use CCC to clone then I could reformat internal and re-clone back I guess. I've never come in contact with a drive formatted journaled encrypted before.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:55 am 
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Uhhhggg, found this at TechRepublic

Quote:
Even though CCC 4 can back up/restore recovery partitions, it does have its limits — namely, Fusion Drives and Core Storage volumes. Since both implement changes in how the drive's file system interface with the computer, only solution #1 will work to create a recovery partition since it must be done prior to the drives running the commands, which will create a Fusion Drive or Core Storage volume.

It looks to me like this drive is considered "CoreStorage" and therefore restore partition will not be copied with CCC.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:16 am 
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After you turn off Filevault... & wait for it to fish it's biz, I think the volume will no longer report Encrypted.

Might take quite a while to do.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:45 am 
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BDAqua wrote:
After you turn off Filevault... & wait for it to fish it's biz, I think the volume will no longer report Encrypted.

Might take quite a while to do.

99 days remaining......80 days.......50.......11..........5..........1 day remaining and holding...........

probably a few hours I guess.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:21 pm 
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Assuming you cloned the disk onto the external, you wouldn't need to play with the recovery partition at all, you'd just want to erase the current Macintosh HD volume as a non-encrypted type.

Unless you did a fresh install of Yosemite you likely don't have a CoreStorage volume, but anything's possible I guess. In the event you do have a CoreStorage volume, it will confusingly list a Macintosh HD device (so left-most "column") with a Macintosh HD volume indented one step in (so offset to the right a little and below the first Macintosh HD). You would want to erase the volume & not the device.

I would certainly recommend turning off FV as a first step. That should disable encryption which should speed up reads/writes.

Standalone hybrid drives like the Seagate he has don't show up as a Fusion device and don't require CoreStorage, they just appear as a HD and its firmware manages the SSD on its own.

To be honest the older Momentus XT 750GB is probably the best hybrid, since the newer ones are 5400rpm (boo) and the SSDs are the same size yet MLC (fewer write cycles). The 500GB model has a teeny little 2GB SSD which is pretty much worthless, so it's just the 750 that's best of both worlds.

If you want to revert a corestorage volume to a normal volume there typically is a way to do it, however it's dependent on the corestorage volume being listed as being capable of reverting to a normal volume. I don't know what would cause it not to, I've never seen it, but I would guess if you're using whole disk encryption and/or Fusion then it won't be revertable. Whether it would become revertable once you disable encryption is the question.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:17 pm 
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MonkeyBoy wrote:
Assuming you cloned the disk onto the external, you wouldn't need to play with the recovery partition at all, you'd just want to erase the current Macintosh HD volume as a non-encrypted type.

Unless you did a fresh install of Yosemite you likely don't have a CoreStorage volume, but anything's possible I guess. In the event you do have a CoreStorage volume, it will confusingly list a Macintosh HD device (so left-most "column") with a Macintosh HD volume indented one step in (so offset to the right a little and below the first Macintosh HD). You would want to erase the volume & not the device.

I do believe it is CoreStorage (see pic in post 3) because it is exactly as you describe it. Macintosh HD device on left with Macintosh HD volume below it and indented to right. Good information regarding erasing volume and not device as that leaves Recovery partition as it is.


MonkeyBoy wrote:
I would certainly recommend turning off FV as a first step. That should disable encryption which should speed up reads/writes.

Yep! I turned it off as BDA suggested and it still has about 4 hours remaining in decrypting.

MonkeyBoy wrote:
Standalone hybrid drives like the Seagate he has don't show up as a Fusion device and don't require CoreStorage, they just appear as a HD and its firmware manages the SSD on its own.

I'm not sure what you mean by "hybrid Seagate he has". I think you might be referring to the 500 GB hybrid I have in my MacBook Pro.

MonkeyBoy wrote:
To be honest the older Momentus XT 750GB is probably the best hybrid, since the newer ones are 5400rpm (boo) and the SSDs are the same size yet MLC (fewer write cycles). The 500GB model has a teeny little 2GB SSD which is pretty much worthless, so it's just the 750 that's best of both worlds.

My reading of the 500 GB Seagate hybrid specs linked above in post 1 show it having an 8 GB SSD component although yes it is 5400. In my MacBook Pro it did make a noticeable speed difference over the standard HD. I used the 500GB internal rather than the 750GB because I in turn used the old 500 GB internal to create my external bootable back up. Again that is about my MacBook Pro not the one in question in this post.

MonkeyBoy wrote:
If you want to revert a corestorage volume to a normal volume there typically is a way to do it, however it's dependent on the corestorage volume being listed as being capable of reverting to a normal volume. I don't know what would cause it not to, I've never seen it, but I would guess if you're using whole disk encryption and/or Fusion then it won't be revertable. Whether it would become revertable once you disable encryption is the question.

That is the question! I really have no idea why this particular MacBook Pro laptop was formatted the way it was. It has been routine to see the extended journaled format. After the decryption finishes.......if the drive still appears as CoreStorage, does it make any sense to go ahead and clone the Macintosh HD volume to the external drive, then erase the internal Macintosh HD volume and format as extended journaled, and then re-clone back??? I guess the question is ...does the CoreStorage format have any effect related to the sluggishness I'm attempting to alleviate.
How will I know if it is or isn't 'revertable'?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:33 pm 
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I was trying to simultaneously reply to both you and BD at the same time, hence the change in tense there.

The 500GB Momentus XT has a 2GB SSD. The newer 500GB SSHD has an 8GB SSD. There were 2, maybe 3 Momentus XT models of varying sizes, only the 750GB model had the larger SLC SSD. I was trying to caution you away from looking for a smaller Momentus XT and goofed up the sentence a bit in editing.

If you boot off the recovery partition you can try using the following instructions to revert the encrypted volume from CS to normal:
http://awesometoast.com/yosemite-core-s ... tion-woes/

More than likely when you enabled whole-disk FileVault it upgraded your partition to CoreStorage. Once you undo FileVault it may revert the volume but will likely leave it CS, but without encryption it may become revertable.

Interestingly enough if you somehow managed to wipe out your recovery partition yet had the whole disk encrypted volume intact your system would no longer be bootable. Yay! However in order to wipe out the recovery partition you have to wipe the entire physical disk, not just the corestorage device, so the chance of that combination happening is remote.

The difference in speed you noticed between the stock drive and the SSHD is a combination of the SSHD and newer drive tech. Even though the capacity & rotational speed are the same, the areal density is higher on the newer disk which normally increases the transfer rate. With a faster drive and SSHD the results are even more impressive, but Seagate stopped making 7200rpm laptop mechanisms which is why the SSHDs are stuck at 5400rpm now. :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:53 pm 
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After turning off FileVault the process of decrypting took a long time. Actually just finished, so 6 or so hours. After restarting the drive is no longer listed as CoreStorage, it is HFS+ extended journaled as is most common in my experience. The computer is a little faster but I would still characterize it as slower than I think it should be. Maybe I'm just suffering from being used to SSD speed now. Even my 2.5 GHZ i5 with the new 500 GB hybrid blows this one away on boot time and application load times.

Maybe it's time for a new drive. I'll let the user decide.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:04 pm 
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Have you tried clearing caches yet, maybe with a Safe boot?

Any indications in Activity Monitor>Show: All Processes as to CPU usage?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:32 pm 
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db5owat wrote:
The computer is a little faster but I would still characterize it as slower than I think it should be. Maybe I'm just suffering from being used to SSD speed now.


Maybe that's it. Is yours also running the same OS, i.e. Yosemite?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:51 am 
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BDAqua wrote:
Have you tried clearing caches yet, maybe with a Safe boot?

Any indications in Activity Monitor>Show: All Processes as to CPU usage?

BDA, I did a safe boot this morning. I guess doing so auto clears some cache files....have I got that right? I've played around on the laptop for awhile this morning, restarting several times and opening several apps. It seems a little more like normal speed. Still a bit slowish but better. Nothing odd at all in Activity Monitor.
roam wrote:
Maybe that's it. Is yours also running the same OS, i.e. Yosemite?

Yes mine is running the same OS. I do think the new speed of the laptop in question (after turning off file vault, removing all login items & cleaning cache files with a safe boot) seems to corroborate the notion that the speeds I've become accustom to, might serve to exaggerates the sense of sluggishness. A real world example for comparison, the boot time for the 'slower' MacBook Pro from off to login screen is now 1 minute 45 seconds. How does that compare? Am I now within 'normal' boot time on a similar machine with a traditional HD?

Again, I do see a real improvement from where this machine started. It's still slower than mine at booting, but that's to be expected since mine has the hybrid drive. The fact that mine actually has the slower i5 (2.5 GHZ) CPU compared to the slower booting machine with i7 (2.9 GHZ) CPU would show up more in actual number crunching as opposed to boot time or app load time. Have I got that correct?

BTW, I noticed that that there are 2 user accounts Main User 1 is ID 502. The other is a guest user acct ID 201. I thought the main acct should be ID 501, could that impact this situation at all?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:27 am 
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Quote:
I did a safe boot this morning. I guess doing so auto clears some cache files....have I got that right?

Yes,but far less so in later OSes.
Quote:
Am I now within 'normal' boot time on a similar machine with a traditional HD?

I don't think so, latest I could find...

"Boot Time Test" Results
http://eshop.macsales.com/Reviews/Frame ... Pro15.html

Are you still running Sophos???
Quote:
I noticed that that there are 2 user accounts Main User 1 is ID 502. The other is a guest user acct ID 201. I thought the main acct should be ID 501, could that impact this situation at all?

Never that I've seen, but strange you have no 501 user.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:46 am 
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As of late Apple's stock drives have never been particularly good, generally on the slower, cheaper side of the supply chain and not the faster, faster, expensive side of the supply chain. As a rule of thumb they are pretty reliable though, which is kind of a blessing and a curse because then people get in the habit of never backing up their data.

That's part of why replacing the drive with a newer one makes such a big difference, esp. if you're opting for one that's actually a good performer.

As for the 502 w/o 501, they probably deleted whatever the first account was on their system. I've seen this quite a bit when relationships go south, but sometimes it's parents/relatives setting up systems for their kids or relatives and then the kid/relative deletes the initial account because security rabble rabble rabble.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:39 am 
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MonkeyBoy wrote:
As of late Apple's stock drives have never been particularly good, generally on the slower, cheaper side of the supply chain and not the faster, faster, expensive side of the supply chain. As a rule of thumb they are pretty reliable though, which is kind of a blessing and a curse because then people get in the habit of never backing up their data.

That's part of why replacing the drive with a newer one makes such a big difference, esp. if you're opting for one that's actually a good performer.

As for the 502 w/o 501, they probably deleted whatever the first account was on their system. I've seen this quite a bit when relationships go south, but sometimes it's parents/relatives setting up systems for their kids or relatives and then the kid/relative deletes the initial account because security rabble rabble rabble.

Sounds right on the money. Do you think here is much chance that doing a clean install of Yosemite and then migrating back from the TimeMachine back up, will result in a faster booting machine? I mentioned above it still takes about 1 minute 45 seconds from start to login.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:04 pm 
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In Console, check the system log for date & time of last startup, we may see what is happening.


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